Dark Knight and stance dancing

[Drkdays]

I don't really stance dance as drk, I'll judge based on my group whether or not I need it for a given pull/boss and if I do I don't usually take it off because of the MP cost of resetting it, unless it's going to be a prolonged fight and I trust my healer to keep me up. Lately though I've been using it less and less, even for settling agro at the beginning because I have little trouble holding agro even without grit. For instance, last lost city hard I ran without using grit at all.

[Aurius]

The large mp cost is mitigated with blood weapon, skill speed aside 6 gcds at 238 mp is 1428 mp, which is more than grit costs. You also get 238 per auto attack, and physical ogcd. Stance dancing is harder on drk we just have to be more on top of our resources than the other tanks. We need to know there's a 15s window where grits not needed, but it's totally manageable, albeit harder

[MagiusNecros]

Wouldn't call it stance dancing tbh. Darkside is always up and you only really toggle Grit on and off.

Only real class that changes is Warrior and PLD only has one Oath up at any time.

[HatsoonMike]

I just want them to make Grit completely off GCD, have it be like Defiance used to be. It's really annoying wasting time between GCDs pressing Grit, making sure it fell off because it sometimes doesn't due to latency, and making sure I don't press it twice, putting it back on. Just make it a quick toggle for fucks sake.

[Awful]

Drk and Pld are punished compared to War however Drks have the highest MT potential out of all the tanks since Darkside is 15% and grit is -20% dmg you only lose 5% dmg, War has unchained + Berserk and is the safest to be in Defiance with once you have that threat lead. Pld gets hit the hardest and penalized with a GCD and losing -20% for being an MT bringing the lowest DPS out of all 3 tanks for main tanking with Fight or Flight being good as a 60 sec CD but their DPS output compared to the other tanks is just lacking.

Tldr; I find just being a pld stance dancing is clunkier compared to drk/war as they have the resources/dmg/threat.

Edit: forgot Plds is -15% now forgot

[Chronons]

Snip

Stance dancing is a bigger investment for DRKs as opposed to the other tanks for two specific reasons. The first, as you mentioned, is the resource requirement of it. Stepping out of Grit costs nothing (maybe a little bit of GCD delay as you have to wait for it to be ready, but it doesn't actually cost a GCD to drop), while having to step back in is a big MP investment and a GCD. The second reason it is a bigger investment is that once you step out of Grit the gains of Power Slash combo diminish rapidly. You are dropping Grit to push DPS and for DRK that is accomplished via Delirium and DA Souleaters. Since neither of those combos have emnity modifiers attached to them (unlike PLDs or WARs DPS combos) maintaining emnity is a strict DPS race between you and the actual DPS classes. That means that the DPS are more likely to force you to resort to a Power Slash combo or -shivers- push you back into Grit than if you were PLD or WAR.

Basically, DRKs have to be more conservative about stance dancing compared to the other two so we can maximize the time that we do get to spend out of Grit. However, I think that is fair considering that we have the lowest cost of being in tank stance. (-5% DRK vs -15% PLD vs -20% WAR to damage dealt)

[Shinzee]

Keep wondering why ppl consider darkside with the dmg penalty of grit but never do the same with maim on warrior which is barely any work to keep up just as darkside.
Also a war loses 5% from stepping out of deliv and gets a 25% dmg penalty for entering defiance with maim adding 20% dmg.
A pld loses 15% and the 50 pot aa from sword oath which result in roughly 10 to 11% of their total dps.
A drk loses 20% from grit with a 15% gain from darkside but gets locked out of blood weapon the only "offensive" cd a drk has.

[Chronons]

snip

I did a little of that kind of math in another thread with the help of some other posters. DRK in Grit/Darkside = .92 ( 1x .8x 1.15), PLD in ShO/FoF= .914 [(1x .85x 3+ 1.105)/4], WAR in Def/Maim/SE= .99 (1x .75x 1.2x 1.1). For those numbers we used a time interval of 3 mins and gave FoF 1/4 up time, it is actually around 22% of the 3 mins. The numbers are all actually pretty close as far as dmg output goes, but we should keep in mind the 3 classes have different combo potencies. Interestingly if you add the 10% from SE/DE to PLD and DRK they come up to 1.0054 and 1.012 respectively making it even closer.

Actually as an aside, I tried to see how Unchained and Berserk would affect those numbers. Both can be available at the same time for 30secs of the 3 mins and Unchained alone for 10secs. So for both (1x 1.2x 1.1x 1.5= 1.98 for 17% of the time 30/180) and for Unchained alone (1x 1.2 x 1.1= 1.32 for 5.5% of the time 10/180). At .99 for the other 78% of the 3 mins it should give a weighted avg of 1.1748 [(1.98x .17)+(1.32x .05)+(.99x .78)]. But I could be way off with my math, someone plz feel free to correct me if so.

[MagiusNecros]

Most cases that DRK will be MT.

[Shurrikhan]

If a DRK were to stance-dance for every Blood Weapon, that'd be a GCDs per 45s, or roughly costing 6% of your GCDs. The MP cost itself also nearly takes up a Dark Arts.
If a PLD were to stance-dance every Fight or Flight, that'd be 2 GCDs per 90s, or basically the same. Slightly higher combined mana cost, lower individual mana cost; lesser MP dependency.
A WAR has a delayed eHP return from swapping into Defiance, but an immediate positive modifier to the healing/damage taken balance. MOREOVER, that balance can be extended in the case of HoTs, giving a further free bonus in H/DT balance while in DPS stance. Its DPS stance has immediate effect. Neither costs GCDs.

To be honest, the mere fact that you can get a full buffed regen basically for free by swapping to Deliverance right after its application offsets the delay in eHP, imo. As for as practical scenarios are concerned, Thrill of Battle's synergy with Defiance (immediate), Equilibrium's heal (to cap both the missing max HP and any AAs taken before the TB), or mere timing (early swaps) are more than enough to counter any issue you'd otherwise have. And all at negligible cost.

Even if you go into Defiance 2 GCDs early, unless you're missing out on a Fell Cleave for it, you're nowhere close to as burdened as either other tank due to their lost GCD(s), even now that swaps no longer cost combo progress (which created probably the most similar feeling gameplay to an early Defiance swap).

It is not balanced. Each has their drawbacks, but until swaps are a whole lot more frequently usable and useful, WAR's drawback does not nearly approach that of the other two tanks. I'm not saying that changes are hugely needed, but I don't see why anecdotal findings are still tossing this debate around. At a glance, it's pretty clear. Actually consider for once Defiance's HoT snapshotting, its parry buff, gearing effects on Healing taken vs. Damage taken, and Defiance not affecting ability heals, and then maybe we'd see a real debate. But that tiny delay cap vs. the GCDs lost, when WAR has so many more tools to get over it, and CAN swap at will... I don't even...