Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Gameplayzero]

https://youtu.be/B7j6MJzd-4A
actual quote:

"pld should never mt anything. every time they are in shield oath they are hindering their group. DRK and WAR can mitigate just as much damage and deal so much more while MT. the damage increase from shield oath to sword oath is tremendous and much a bigger gain than grit to non grit and defiance to deliverance. Plus, war can hold aggro better while in dps stance and lose nothing when they need to switch to defiance if necessary"

I bring this up because I'm a tad bit confused. Every group I've seen with paladins (even elysium) always make paladin main tank. Warriors obviously do the most OT damage and dark/paladins FULL dps tools arent completely shut out when main tanking (shield swipe).

I want to hear your opinions on what xeno said and possibly shed some light on this. Unless I'm misreading he is basically saying paladins should always be OT instead.

edit: sorry I also meant to assume paladin is only staying in shield oath when needed and is constantly stance dancing. I know warrior does more MT damage than paladin, but I'm asking if Zeno is right in completely condoning paladin main tanking.

[Kingkie]

"paladin in shield oath hinders group.

Youtube link doesnt work for me but xeno's right.

In short:
A paladin in shield oath + ot war is less dps than mt war and ot pld.
The paladins you saw are main tanking in sword oath, having both tank in offensive stance is the best if you want to push high dps.
When I raid on paladin I use shield oath as a defensive cooldown and switch back to sword oath.

[Gameplayzero]

Youtube link doesnt work for me but xeno's right.

In short:
A paladin in shield oath + ot war is less dps than mt war and ot pld.
The paladins you saw are main tanking in sword oath, having both tank in offensive stance is the best if you want to push high dps.
When I raid on paladin I use shield oath as a defensive cooldown and switch back to sword oath.

one sec. I'll try to fix link since my summary of what xeno actually said is messing up what I'm actually trying to get across. I'll see if I can copy and paste what he directly said too.

FIXED. hopefully you can see his quote even if I copy and pasted it this time. App doesn't allow it.

[Brian_]

I don't know what is so hard for you to understand. Xeno is saying that if the PLD is in ShO it hurts the raid. If the PLD is OTing then they have higher SwO up-time. But, if the PLD is capable of MTing with the same SwO up-time, then that point does not matter. They have the same SwO up-time regardless of MTing or OTing.

He's also saying that another point in favor of WAR is their enmity generation because BB is part of their standard rotation and RoH is ideally not a part of PLD's. But there are ways around this. The first is to have the WAR open the fight before swapping to your PLD. The second is a NIN. Context is also important. A lot of fights this tier have forced DPS down-time via mechanics or add-phases which allow tanks to enjoy some alone time with the boss. They also have forced tank swaps which allow your WAR co-tank to rebuild some of the enmity lead.

[Gameplayzero]

I don't know what is so hard for you to understand. Xeno is saying that if the PLD is in ShO it hurts the raid. If the PLD is OTing then they have higher SwO up-time. But, if the PLD is capable of MTing with the same SwO up-time, then that point does not matter. They have the same SwO up-time regardless of MTing or OTing?.

but if he is ok with paladin being in sword oath as main tank why would he just say "paladins should never be main tank"? As you said all the cons dont matter at that point. The guy asking Xeno asked in general why the paladin in the group wasn't main tanking. Not why paladins in shield oath shouldn't tank.

if I'm misinterpreting this super badly can someone tell me lol. I'm rather shocked by his statement than the evidence he provided in spite of what raid groups are currently doing.

[Violette]

I may come across as rude but I already knew all of what you said.

but if he is ok with paladin being in sword oath as main tank why would he just say "paladins should never be main tank"? As you said all the cons dont matter at that point. The guy asking Xeno asked in general why the paladin in the group wasn't main tanking. Not why paladins in shield oath shouldn't tank.

if I'm misinterpreting this super badly can someone tell me lol.

You're ignoring Brian's bringing up Xeno's clarifying statement.

After all, Layla Bell from Elysium said that Midas Savage would have been easier with a paladin mt as opposed to a drk (on A8S), yet no-one brings that up.

[Brian_]

This is not new and has been the case since ARR.

If you are a PLD MT that is staying in ShO, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing and the PLD OTing in SwO. But, if your PLD can MT with high SwO up-time then they are a better choice to MT than a WAR.

The same goes for DRK. If you are a DRK MT that is staying in Grit, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing. But, if you can manage the fight Gritless, the DRK is the better choice to MT.

[Gameplayzero]

This is not new and has been the case since ARR.

If you are a PLD MT that is staying in ShO, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing and the PLD OTing in SwO. But, if your PLD can MT with high SwO up-time then they are a better choice to MT than a WAR.

The same goes for DRK. If you are a DRK MT that is staying in Grit, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing. But, if you can manage the fight Gritless, the DRK is the better choice to MT.

yes but we are assuming paladin will not be in shield oath the whole time.

but that's not what I'm asking though.

Zeno was saying even with stance dancing paladin still shouldn't be main tank which you said was better. I kind of mentioned why it's a benefit to put paladin as MT but is that simply the reason most groups put pally as main tank and is xeno wrong? And sorry for all the edits. I'm on mobile.

[Brian_]

Xeno specifically says "everytime the PLD is in ShO they are hindering their group."

Like I said, if your PLD is capable of maintaining high SwO up-time then ShO hindering the group isn't an issue. And, if the PLD is capable of holding enmity, then the difference in enmity generation also isn't an issue.

I think you are making a lot out of nothing. Nothing he said is new or controversial. They're points that have already been discussed and his conclusion is the same as the general consensus of the raiding community.

[Gameplayzero]

Xeno specifically says "everytime the PLD is in ShO they are hindering their group."

Like I said, if your PLD is capable of maintaining high SwO up-time then ShO hindering the group isn't an issue. And, if the PLD is capable of holding enmity, then the difference in enmity generation also isn't an issue.

I think you are making a lot out of nothing. Nothing he said is new or controversial. They're points that have already been discussed and his conclusion is the same as the general consensus of the raiding community.

I don't think you understand what he is saying. It's possible I'm making a whole lot of nothing but what you quoted was PART of his counter-argument to what he said in bold in my first post. And he mentioned stance dancing and holding aggro in dps stance in the post. Which kind of shuts down what you interpret I believe since you would have no reason to hold hate as OT until tank swap.

especially since the first reply specifically asked why the paladin in that video wasn't main tank regardless of stance.

I'm pretty sure Zeno isnt going to raid with an OT that can't comfortably stance dance and the raid group period. You are reading into this wrong.