Xeno believes paladin should NEVER be main tank

[Gameplayzero]

https://youtu.be/B7j6MJzd-4A
actual quote:

"pld should never mt anything. every time they are in shield oath they are hindering their group. DRK and WAR can mitigate just as much damage and deal so much more while MT. the damage increase from shield oath to sword oath is tremendous and much a bigger gain than grit to non grit and defiance to deliverance. Plus, war can hold aggro better while in dps stance and lose nothing when they need to switch to defiance if necessary"

I bring this up because I'm a tad bit confused. Every group I've seen with paladins (even elysium) always make paladin main tank. Warriors obviously do the most OT damage and dark/paladins FULL dps tools arent completely shut out when main tanking (shield swipe).

I want to hear your opinions on what xeno said and possibly shed some light on this. Unless I'm misreading he is basically saying paladins should always be OT instead.

edit: sorry I also meant to assume paladin is only staying in shield oath when needed and is constantly stance dancing. I know warrior does more MT damage than paladin, but I'm asking if Zeno is right in completely condoning paladin main tanking.

[Kingkie]

"paladin in shield oath hinders group.

Youtube link doesnt work for me but xeno's right.

In short:
A paladin in shield oath + ot war is less dps than mt war and ot pld.
The paladins you saw are main tanking in sword oath, having both tank in offensive stance is the best if you want to push high dps.
When I raid on paladin I use shield oath as a defensive cooldown and switch back to sword oath.

[Brian_]

This is not new and has been the case since ARR.

If you are a PLD MT that is staying in ShO, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing and the PLD OTing in SwO. But, if your PLD can MT with high SwO up-time then they are a better choice to MT than a WAR.

The same goes for DRK. If you are a DRK MT that is staying in Grit, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing. But, if you can manage the fight Gritless, the DRK is the better choice to MT.

[Iromi]

Who?
/10char

[Gameplayzero]

This is not new and has been the case since ARR.

If you are a PLD MT that is staying in ShO, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing and the PLD OTing in SwO. But, if your PLD can MT with high SwO up-time then they are a better choice to MT than a WAR.

The same goes for DRK. If you are a DRK MT that is staying in Grit, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing. But, if you can manage the fight Gritless, the DRK is the better choice to MT.

yes but we are assuming paladin will not be in shield oath the whole time.

but that's not what I'm asking though.

Zeno was saying even with stance dancing paladin still shouldn't be main tank which you said was better. I kind of mentioned why it's a benefit to put paladin as MT but is that simply the reason most groups put pally as main tank and is xeno wrong? And sorry for all the edits. I'm on mobile.

[Cabalabob]

It's all been said, PLD is only best MT if they can full time sword oath, but since PLD is the weakest and has the worst enmity modifiers it's also the hardest to hold hate with when not in tank stance and is very likely to lost hate to a dps, let alone a WAR out of tank stance.

PLD needs its old shield back before the STR nerf where it could block 35% damage with aegis shield, basically giving it a mini physical only sentinel, not the current glorified parry it has now. And majorly buffed enmity modifiers so it can compensate for its lower damage. Then it will be best MT again, at least in physical fights.

[Gameplayzero]

Youtube link doesnt work for me but xeno's right.

In short:
A paladin in shield oath + ot war is less dps than mt war and ot pld.
The paladins you saw are main tanking in sword oath, having both tank in offensive stance is the best if you want to push high dps.
When I raid on paladin I use shield oath as a defensive cooldown and switch back to sword oath.

one sec. I'll try to fix link since my summary of what xeno actually said is messing up what I'm actually trying to get across. I'll see if I can copy and paste what he directly said too.

FIXED. hopefully you can see his quote even if I copy and pasted it this time. App doesn't allow it.

[SpookyGhost]

If you are a PLD MT that is staying in ShO, your party would be better off with your WAR MTing and the PLD OTing in SwO. But, if your PLD can MT with high SwO up-time then they are a better choice to MT than a WAR.

I question whether this is true. They gain Shield Swipe proc, but they also have to lose potency from needing to RoH or staying in ShO for x amount of time. If WAR pulls and you swap after the burst, then SwO PLD is probably better though.

e: They also lose potency from Spirits Within though I doubt that really accounts for much.

[Brian_]

Xeno specifically says "everytime the PLD is in ShO they are hindering their group."

Like I said, if your PLD is capable of maintaining high SwO up-time then ShO hindering the group isn't an issue. And, if the PLD is capable of holding enmity, then the difference in enmity generation also isn't an issue.

I think you are making a lot out of nothing. Nothing he said is new or controversial. They're points that have already been discussed and his conclusion is the same as the general consensus of the raiding community.

[Gameplayzero]

Xeno specifically says "everytime the PLD is in ShO they are hindering their group."

Like I said, if your PLD is capable of maintaining high SwO up-time then ShO hindering the group isn't an issue. And, if the PLD is capable of holding enmity, then the difference in enmity generation also isn't an issue.

I think you are making a lot out of nothing. Nothing he said is new or controversial. They're points that have already been discussed and his conclusion is the same as the general consensus of the raiding community.

I don't think you understand what he is saying. It's possible I'm making a whole lot of nothing but what you quoted was PART of his counter-argument to what he said in bold in my first post. And he mentioned stance dancing and holding aggro in dps stance in the post. Which kind of shuts down what you interpret I believe since you would have no reason to hold hate as OT until tank swap.

especially since the first reply specifically asked why the paladin in that video wasn't main tank regardless of stance.

I'm pretty sure Zeno isnt going to raid with an OT that can't comfortably stance dance and the raid group period. You are reading into this wrong.