Some Feedback on Dark Knight as a Defensive Support (Tank)

[MiniPrinny]

So, for most of us, we have probably come to realize that tanks in PvP aren't meant to hold aggro so much as they are meant to reduce damage, protect allies, and harry enemy healers and ranged damage dealers.

Now, while I find Dark Knight's damage output fine, they do more than enough to trouble healers and their abilities are adequate at reducing damage and protecting allies, they have some crippling holes in their abilities, most of which are simply there from a lack of foresight or planning. Dark Knights are hard to kill, very hard to kill, which is a good job done by the developers, but that is not what a tank is in PvP, and no matter how hard we are to kill, no healer can keep up with a tank that is taking 250% extra damage should it come down to that. So let's go over fixing up the four abilities that have the biggest issues in PvP, and what, in my experience, could be done to solve the problems these abilities have currently.

Carnal Chill is probably the poster child for abilities that are much weaker than they should be for awkward reasons. Dark Knight is an interesting case as a tank in PvP, since while Paladin and Warrior have highly defensive abilities for party damage reduction in the forms of Testudo and Thrill of War, Carnal Chill is highly offensive. Not only is Carnal Chill offensive, it is a very large burst of defensive power, but lasts a very short amount of time compared to its peers. In many ways it is a harder to use version of Testudo that deals damage. But unlike Testudo and Thrill of War, Carnal Chill doesn't effect adrenaline rushes, the highest burst abilities in the Feast due to how adrenaline rushes and limit breaks work. This makes Carnal Chill feel rather weak, since while yes, nerfing a damage dealer's output by 60% is a huge change, the servers' netcoding combined with how adrenaline rushes and limit breaks work, leaves Carnal Chill feeling weak when it should be stronger. The most reasonable change would be to let flat damage reduction from abilities like Carnal Chill and Storm's Path apply to adrenaline rushes, as well as maybe giving a grace period to debuff applying since those abilities cast so very quickly.

Moving on, we have Dark Knight's and Paladin's arguably, most powerful debuff, Blind. Both Dark Passenger and Flash are incredibly powerful, but in PvP, like PvE, enough accuracy defeats the point of being blinded by enemies. This is a fact most of us already knew, but it seemed worthwhile to point it out. I have no good ideas as to how the developers could improve Blind in PvP without changing how accuracy functions as a whole. This is obviously not something that can be done in a patch, but the sole thought that comes to mind for improving the effectiveness of Blind is just that, changing accuracy. This is just a thought, but in PvP, accuracy perhaps should serve a completely different role than what it does in PvE, perhaps in the form of piercing defenses, or a means to enhance PvP abilities, or even a secondary form of crit, but leaving core abilities to four Jobs as useless in the place where they should have the most use doesn't seem right. And while yes, I only mentioned Dark Passenger and Flash, let us not forget about Ruin II.

Next, is probably the ability that gets the second most grief for Dark Knight's core kit is Delirium. For those who have browsed the tank forums in the past, you likely know that I find Delirium horribly weak for what it is. As a replacement for Dragon Kick it spectacularly fails at being that, since it not only is a DPS loss in ideal conditions, but also is flat out replaced by Dragon Kick. However, there's more to it than that in PvP, I've noticed that in the Feast, the difference in my effectiveness varies wildly based on if I am facing a Bard or Machinist vs a Summoner or Black Mage, for one reason: Delirium. Dark Knights from what I have witnessed are incredible anti-caster tanks, where Paladin easily crushes enemy melee, Dark Knight does the same to casters, but not to rangers. A simple fix would be to just make Delirium apply -DEX in PvP only, allowing the Dark Knight to do their role regardless of the type of ranged DPS they're against, but some may consider that too good. Beyond this, and I've suggested it in the past, perhaps Dark Knight should be adjusted to be a pure magic damage tank and have Delirium be their version of Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge. But that's a completely different topic. In either case, Delirium is weak, it shouldn't only be better than Power Slash because it has 10 more potency as a full combo. In fact, without an enemy caster, Power Slash is arguably better since its burst is higher at 300 vs 280.

The final, and most painful weakness, one that is still tormenting Dark Knight to this day, is Living Dead. Living Dead in PvP is almost always just delaying the inevitable. Holmgang has amazing offensive use and pinch defensive use, Hallowed Ground, while only available once a match, is unbelievably strong, and Living Dead is just wasting time. I've won my fair share of matches by using Living Dead in the last 10-20 seconds, but that shouldn't be the only place where it feels good to use my ultimate ability. Now that tanks have even more HP than ever, I find that even in PvE, my healers simply can not keep me alive without Benediction or a lot of cooldown usage from us both. Perhaps its time to figure out a healthier way of removing the debuff, at least in PvP where communication is more strained for solo queue and cooldowns are spent often long before some other abilities. Living Dead needs something, anything to make it stronger and worth using beyond securing a victory late in a match.

[MiniPrinny]

-snip-

In PvE and PvP, Blind functions by increasing the accuracy you need to hit the target without fail. In PvP, you don't need much if any accuracy to hit players with flawless accuracy. But, more accuracy than is needed will start breaking down the effectiveness of Blind as well as defensive buffs like Featherfoot and Dark Dance for weaponskills and spells. Auto-attacks for defensive buffs can still miss regardless of accuracy due to how evasion functions now.

[itsoni]

You can purify living dead off you when you hit 1 HP. Just pop all your CD's because they will try to last hit you and after your healer's back in action, just purify it off. It's a good opportunity to draw people in to your base. So there's your healthier way of removing the debuff.

DRK's in a bad spot. I just dont think it was a well thought out tank. AST is very pretty and is very functional and MCH feels like a more reliable BRD. DRK just awkwardly sits between the two others.

Honestly to make DRK a viable option in PvP they'll have to rethink the entire job. There's just too much they have in their toolkit that is nowhere near as good as WAR or PLD. They probably even did the STR nerf specifically because they didn't want to re-do DRK - even Yoshi P said he wanted WAR to be the "big DPS" tank and look where it is now. Not big DPS, just burstier.

[Nalien]

Now that tanks have even more HP than ever, I find that even in PvE, my healers simply can not keep me alive without Benediction or a lot of cooldown usage from us both. Perhaps its time to figure out a healthier way of removing the debuff, at least in PvP where communication is more strained for solo queue and cooldowns are spent often long before some other abilities. Living Dead needs something, anything to make it stronger and worth using beyond securing a victory late in a match.

In PvP you can actually Purify Walking Dead, although that isn't too great... Just means Paladin and Warrior get the odd Purify over Dark Knight, too...

Other than that, I've always figured Living Dead, in both PvE and PvP, would benefit from acting sort of like a Dark Arts Berserk... Rather than it being "I'm about to die, pop invincibility", I'd like it more if it was 10 seconds of Dark Knight just being able to go nuts without having to worry about Dark Arts... Essentially either all the Dark Arts effects are active by default under Living Dead, or skills get new Living Dead effects... Then you've got 10 seconds of fighting back with heavy hits and HP drains, and if at the end you still drop to 1HP, you're punished with Walking Dead...

MP is my biggest issue with Dark Knight at the moment... Utility as well, but that topic has been done to death I think... Blood Weapon isn't as effective in PvP as it is in PvE, just due to how mobile fights are... Blood Price is essentially worthless unless you're on Walking Dead and being focused... Sole Survivor is... OK, I've taken to using it solely on the kits though, since nobody can heal them back up to full... Obviously you lose Blood Weapon anyway, if you need to pop Grit for whatever reason, which good luck doing late in the fight when you've perhaps going to want it, but haven't the MP to use it... We could do with some change to MP usage in PvP I think... Trade Enliven for Manadraw? Half Dark Arts cost? Heck, for PvE I wouldn't mind seeing Blood Price changed to work sort of like Shadewalker; Let me pop it on whoever is being focused and get MP back from those hits...

Honestly to make DRK a viable option in PvP they'll have to rethink the entire job. There's just too much they have in their toolkit that is nowhere near as good as WAR or PLD.

I'd say the only thing we have over Paladin and Warrior is chase potential... Shield Lob and Tomahawk aren't the greatest for spamming, while Unmend not only is, it's stronger too. Arguably it's better to hold people in place for your DPS to deal with them, but Stun resist can end that for Paladin, and a timely Purify for Warrior... Meanwhile, if you're running back to spawn after your healer fell? A good Dark Knight will finish you. Plunge and Dark Passenger are amazing for this... I'd really like to see that aspect of the Job built upon...

I'm incline to think Dark Knight is actually OK, at least when played well... My biggest issue is how rigid people are with battle strategies... Most Jobs are much better equipped than Dark Knight to really hassle healers. We can all keep DPS up to keep them busy, but Dark Knight has the one Stun, while most Jobs have two or three forms of interrupt available to them in PvP... It's always "Tank on healer" though...

[MiniPrinny]

In PvP you can actually Purify Walking Dead, although that isn't too great... Just means Paladin and Warrior get the odd Purify over Dark Knight, too...

I was aware of this, but I often, no, nearly always, have Purify on cooldown since I use it on my healer. It's an interesting interaction, but it doesn't solve Living Dead's core problem, which is that it requires more cooldowns than itself to be effective in any way.

[Zslayer74]

A combo'd Delirium should silence for 1 s in pvp only. Just my thought on what should be buffed.

[Kyani]

An idea that just came to me that might give DRK some needed peel: Let Dark Arts bypass the cooldown on Low Blow, so you can use it more than once every 30 seconds.

[Fodemhouse]

As I can understand, DRK is more of a Magical Tank, so it would have better results if enemy team had a blackmage as a dps.. While warrior and Pally are physical tanks... So in fact you just need to find a way... Adapt is the proper word... Adapt to what you have... And u will see that your class is not so weak...

[MiniPrinny]

Fodemhouse... did you even bother to read my post? I say in the first sentence that is exactly what Dark Knight excels at... 50% of the time. I say before I even begin talking about Dark Knight itself that tanks are meant to go after healers and ranged damage dealers. Dark Knight just happens to be only one of the three that specialize in damage dealers over healers.

[Nalien]

As I can understand, DRK is more of a Magical Tank, so it would have better results if enemy team had a blackmage as a dps..

Other than Delirium, we've not really got anything on that... Dark Mind and Delirium are the only things that remotely make Dark Knight seem like a tank who specializes against mages, while Dark Dance, Reprisal and Low Blows swing the other way... If they swapped out Enhanced Shadowskin and just made Shadowskin stronger by default, for a trait that allows you to parry magical attacks, or added that effect to Dark Dance/Dark Arts Dark Dance, then I'd be more incline to agree, but even then... Somewhat irrelevant for PvP... "I can tank mages!" means nothing in a game mode where you're really not the focus of any attention...

They could do a few things to improve that though. Either let us use Dark Mind on party members, or change Dark Arts Dark Mind to an AoE effect for the whole party... Heck, changing it to a Perfect Dodge style skill for magic would be quite nice, since you'd be able to pop it and avoid various CC spells... Parry is still very much worthless (in general, not just PvP), though I understand SE has plans for it in 4.0, but having Reprisal and Low Blows trigger off dodges would be quite nice, given Dark Knight has just as much evasion tools available as parry (we're just missing an evasion stat for... reasons...). Then at the very least we can get a bit more use out of Reprisal, and maybe be on a better situation with Stuns...

Delirium though, is as nice as Rage of Halone, that is to say not very compared to Storm's Path... Delirium has the bigger issue of not stacking with Dragon Kick though... This would be entirely useless for PvE (AFAIK, at least), but I think it would be quite nice if Dark Arts Delirium directly damaged MP... That would be a fairly good piece of utility against healers, while not being too OP, since it's locked behind Dark Arts... That would mean Dark Knight can put pressure on anyone that uses MP, and more drawn out encounters start to favor Dark Knights...