Would you like an in-game parser?

[RiyahArp]

Slightly off topic, but this post reminded me of another skill curve I've seen floating around the internet...

This is why you never listen to those guys. (editing)

The thing about people who believe the skill curve should be like that is they don't realize not everyone will power through content if it is hard. Right now we have a lot of casuals and a few raiders; with this skill curve, we'd just end up with fewer casuals, and still few raiders; you'd just end up sifting out more people along the way instead of having two tiered endgame.

The problem with raiding is that it's mostly a hard endurance contest where one mistake can make the fight unrecoverable. After the clear, it becomes "do the endurance contest multiple times as fast as you can without mistakes" which is even worse. It's simply not fun content for a lot of people, and the devs pretty wisely keep it optional.Trying to push that model of content down the line would be a disaster.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

This is why you never listen to those guys. (editing)

The thing about people who believe the skill curve should be like that is they don't realize not everyone will power through content if it is hard. Right now we have a lot of casuals and a few raiders; with this skill curve, we'd just end up with fewer casuals, and still few raiders; you'd just end up sifting out more people along the way instead of having two tiered endgame.

The problem with raiding is that it's mostly a hard endurance contest where one mistake can make the fight unrecoverable. After the clear, it becomes "do the endurance contest multiple times as fast as you can without mistakes" which is even worse. It's simply not fun content for a lot of people, and the devs pretty wisely keep it optional.Trying to push that model of content down the line would be a disaster.

I agree with the basic premise of their analysis of the game's skill curve.
I don't think it would be a bad thing to progressively increase the difficulty of the content as the characters raise in level.

It would all depend on how that skill curve is implemented.
The pictured Eve Online skill curve wouldn't be beneficial to the game, while at the same time the flat line pictured in the paint pictures from the post above also doesn't benefit the game much.

[HyoMinPark]

The problem with raiding is that it's mostly a hard endurance contest where one mistake can make the fight unrecoverable. After the clear, it becomes "do the endurance contest multiple times as fast as you can without mistakes" which is even worse. It's simply not fun content for a lot of people, and the devs pretty wisely keep it optional.Trying to push that model of content down the line would be a disaster.

No one is advocating that content like dungeons be Savage-level difficulty. They’re just saying that this game has a very poor difficulty curve when it comes to its content. When some of the hardest “casual” content continues to be the level 47 dungeon Aurum Vale or the level 57 The Vault, there’s an issue there. There’s an issue when leveling dungeons offer more of a challenge than the supposed “Expert” endgame dungeons. Dungeons are so easy, the minute something minutely challenging appears (like a 24-man, which is also catered towards the more casual, non-raider playerbase), people start to complain about how it’s too hard. Look at Weeping City, Dun Scaith, and Rabanastre. Each one has had cry after cry for nerfs (Weeping for Forgall/Ozma, Dun Scaith for Scathach, Rabanastre for Hashmal), and the content isn’t even that hard.

Look at ShinEx—a definite step up from Lakshmi and Susano. And how many people are whining that it’s “too hard” and needs to be nerfed? I’ve seen people say Shinryu is the same level of difficulty as Thordan Ex at launch; Shin wishes he was that hard. Even at i240/i260, Thordan still had mechanics you just couldn’t ignore; sure you could skip the entire last phase (well, sometimes), but he wasn’t a pushover. Susano and Lakshmi were rolling over at release; even more so now. Even Shin will start to roll over once 4.2 comes out and players start getting the new gear.

This game needs a better difficulty curve. With a better difficulty curve, players that would like to try their hand at more challenging content (Extremes and Savage) would not be so overwhelmed when they got there because this game does nothing to prepare you for the likes of raid floors like A8S, A11S, A12S, V3S, or V4S. It can barely prepare players for content like Thordan Ex, Sephirot Ex, or Shinryu Ex. Something has to be done about it.

[RiyahArp]

No one is advocating that content like dungeons be Savage-level difficulty. They’re just saying that this game has a very poor difficulty curve when it comes to its content.

If the end result is to get people at 70 to be savage capable, you're going to start seeing dungeons get very hard for people at the 60s. Savage tends to be very mechanic heavy, and much less forgiving of mistakes. To make a curve that prepares people for that would end up making the same thing happen to 60+ content on a slightly smaller scale ,but even a smaller scale is a pretty big level of difficulty. I can see the end result being the final fight as something like Susano EX (which of course raiders say is so easy). I think forcing people into that would be a nightmare.

Look at ShinEx—a definite step up from Lakshmi and Susano. And how many people are whining that it’s “too hard” and needs to be nerfed? I’ve seen people say Shinryu is the same level of difficulty as Thordan Ex at launch; Shin wishes he was that hard.

And this is why you ignore raiders in terms of difficulty in discussions. Thordan was designed to give players struggling with A3 a slight edge up, but that meant he was balanced in the context of people who completed the two entry fights of the hardest non-ultimate raid this game had. Shin can still be very hard despite being weaker than that, but with raiders they tend to almost always downplay how hard something is. To the high end players, everything is easy.

With a better difficulty curve, players that would like to try their hand at more challenging content (Extremes and Savage) would not be so overwhelmed when they got there

This would just ensure a larger amount of the playerbase would never get there. I mean...can you imagine trying to grind tomes in expert with this kind of difficulty curve? Or how 24 mans would have to be balanced? The SB trials are annoying enough as it is to get them in roulette...imagine they all were as hard as Menagerie at min ilvl with no 70 abilties or worse. The only thing worse than a chore is a hard chore.

[HyoMinPark]

If the end result is to get people at 70 to be savage capable, you're going to start seeing dungeons get very hard for people at the 60s. Savage tends to be very mechanic heavy, and much less forgiving of mistakes. To make a curve that prepares people for that would end up making the same thing happen to 60+ content on a slightly smaller scale ,but even a smaller scale is a pretty big level of difficulty. I can see the end result being the final fight as something like Susano EX (which of course raiders say is so easy). I think forcing people into that would be a nightmare.

The “end result” would be to give this game a better difficulty curve so that people aren’t crying for 24-man bosses to be nerfed because they don’t bother to pay attention to a mechanic that actually hurts them. Every time a new 24-man raid is released, a thread appears asking for nerfs to at least one of the bosses, which aren’t really that much harder than dungeon bosses, just that their mechanics cannot, in most instances, be outright ignored without punishment. Something the “Expert” dungeons lack (which Expert dungeons are supposed to be designed for endgame, level-capped players, yet there are Leveling dungeons harder than the Expert dungeons). The last difficult Expert dungeons were challenging were probably some of the original ARR ones: Amdapor Keep, Pharos Sirius, and even those were nerfed because people cried about it.

Even “non-raiders” said that Susano and Lakshmi Ex were easy. It wasn’t just the raiding crowd that said that.

And this is why you ignore raiders in terms of difficulty in discussions. Thordan was designed to give players struggling with A3 a slight edge up, but that meant he was balanced in the context of people who completed the two entry fights of the hardest non-ultimate raid this game had. Shin can still be very hard despite being weaker than that, but with raiders they tend to almost always downplay how hard something is. To the high end players, everything is easy.

So, then should we ignore the casual playerbase when the raiders want something tuned to their level? Because remember what happened when Ultimate was released and all the non-raiders came forth saying that it was a waste of resources? How is it fair that raiders get ignored in terms of discussion for 90% of the content in this game, but one thing comes up for them and the non-raiders are allowed to complain about how it’s a waste of resources and how raiders don’t deserve the content?

Extremes aren’t even geared towards raiders; they are the content that is supposed to be the segue into raiding, which is largely shifting towards the more midcore content that Extremes used to be. Ultimate is becoming the new “hardcore” difficulty. Yet when there is such a discrepancy between the difficulty and design of the Extremes (again, see Lakshmi/Susano to Shinryu), there is a problem. And that probably boils down to the developers either trying to cater to both groups, or just failing to know how to properly balance and tune a fight.

I didn’t raid in Heavenward until the very end of Creator’s lifecycle. Even then I did not think that Thordan was so challenging that he demanded a nerf—I enjoyed the level of difficulty he posed even when I was outgearing his fight. Same with Sephirot. It’s not just the raiders that welcome challenges sometimes. Some people who do not raid would like for Extremes to be not-faceroll.

This would just ensure a larger amount of the playerbase would never get there.

How would making dungeons have a better difficulty curve so that Leveling dungeons or Aurum Vale aren’t harder than Skalla or Kugane Castel make it so that “a larger amount of the playerbase” would never be able to reach a raiding level? Or even a level where they can do a 24-man without asking for at least one boss to be reworked/nerfed? Or even just a level where they aren’t crying that anything that poses the slightest of challenges be nerfed?

I mean...can you imagine trying to grind tomes in expert with this kind of difficulty curve? Or how 24 mans would have to be balanced? The SB trials are annoying enough as it is to get them in roulette...imagine they all were as hard as Menagerie at min ilvl with no 70 abilties or worse. The only thing worse than a chore is a hard chore.

What’s a chore is subjective. Personally speaking, I already consider roulettes a chore because they’re so boring. The only time they get interesting is when an over-zealous tank does big pulls, or a healer lets the tank drop super low before clutch-healing them each time. I personally feel like capping tomes via roulettes would be less of a chore if they posed at least a slight challenge. As of right now, they do not. Just because you think roulettes that posed a slight challenge will be a “hard chore” does not mean that that will necessarily be the case. Not everyone shares your mindset, just like how they don’t share mine, or another poster’s mindset. However, considering the complaints I have seen about how easy content in this game is, I still feel like something should be done about it.

And as someone who has done Menagerie in the i290 gear first week of Early Access with people (tanks and healers, no less) that did not have their level 70 skills, it really was not as bad as the old doomsayers like to say it was. Just because a piece of content required you to actually pay attention for once does not mean that it was hard. It felt like an appropriate ending to an expansion, unlike Thordan’s normal mode trial at the end of Heavensward, where he just let people stomp all over him.


I do not think it’s a bad thing to fix this game’s difficulty curve so that every time a new 24-man is released or a new Extreme, people don’t immediately come here and ask for pieces to be “reworked”/“nerfed” or whatever. I do not think it’s a bad thing to help more people prepare for the raiding scene if that’s a scene they desire to enter. Creator and Deltascape 1 have tried to ease the difficulty to attract more players into raiding, but the rest of the content does nothing to really prepare them for the likes of A11S or V3S or V4S.

People want to do Extremes and Savage because they either want the challenge, the shinies, or both. Why is it so bad to shift the difficulty of content so that they have an easier time segueing into that scene if that’s what they want? And even for people who don’t want to raid, what is wrong with the game at least not being a complete snoozefast at level-cap? Why do all the dungeons have to be as easy as Kugane Castle? Why?

[Smoose]

-Snip-

So, I just happen to read a lot of your comments when I'm researching stuff here and EVERY TIME I see you say something, it's constructive and detailed. Keep being awesome! (I hope you see this cause I don't know if forums notify people of replies haha)

[akaneakki]

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This would just ensure a larger amount of the playerbase would never get there. I mean...can you imagine trying to grind tomes in expert with this kind of difficulty curve? Or how 24 mans would have to be balanced? The SB trials are annoying enough as it is to get them in roulette...imagine they all were as hard as Menagerie at min ilvl with no 70 abilties or worse.

Honestly, the fact people struggle with susano normal and lakashmi normal is a bad thing. This is an example how much players are allowed to slack and a tiny bit of aoe and some movement strats, they all tank the floor. Even susano extreme is a big joke, much as lakashmi, they dumbed down the extremes a bit compare to heavensward ones. There is nothing hardcore with shinryu story mode at all, far from it. People just couldn't handle it because there are actually mechanics you need to do, or boom dead.

Shinryu is far from the same level of thordan. There was much more penality in thordan and dps check than shinryu. I think expert dungeons or whatever future dungeons should be as ''hard' as ampador keep and Pharos sirius. There is nothing wrong with whoever guy you quoted about shinryu being easier than thordan. Thordan is a bigger dance than shinryu and the check was tighter as well.
To make it short, the curve in this game goes from sleepy dungeons to --pay attention to whats going on the screen-- in a blink of an eye.
The problem is at square enix but same time players. Players who usually farm mounts and I mean like a large population of players who currently farm old mounts, is because they could never do it at that level it was at. The issue is still there, at lvl 70 people can still not do mechanics right and wipe a group. And the ironic part? They do it because they know they can skip mechanics to make it easier, which is where damage comes in. I can push zurvan extreme to 20-25% with a good/decent players before adds, in a typical pf its 55%. Its basically dead when the add phase is done. Players are lazy and don't want to put effort in doing things and we all witness this.

[Smoose]

And this is why you ignore raiders in terms of difficulty in discussions. Thordan was designed to give players struggling with A3 a slight edge up, but that meant he was balanced in the context of people who completed the two entry fights of the hardest non-ultimate raid this game had. Shin can still be very hard despite being weaker than that, but with raiders they tend to almost always downplay how hard something is. To the high end players, everything is easy.

Actually, that's precisely why players who do end game content consistently shouldn't be ignored in a discussion regarding difficulty. I see how it could get out of hand, but excluding the most relevant group of players from the discussion is silly, especially when one of them is giving great feedback about that same discussion.

[Sebazy]

The thing about people who believe the skill curve should be like that is they don't realize not everyone will power through content if it is hard. Right now we have a lot of casuals and a few raiders; with this skill curve, we'd just end up with fewer casuals, and still few raiders; you'd just end up sifting out more people along the way instead of having two tiered endgame.

Sorry to dredge this up a bit, but since this is really the root of part of the debate at hand, the difficulty curve thing is actually worth addressing in detail really.

Whilst I personally think Pharos Sirius a fun dungeon, I do also think that the nerf calls were warranted in some respects, the pirate boss threw debuff stacks like candy, the bird boss just confused people as to how to deal with it whereas Siren would have almost been perfect if her dash/donut move was just a little bit more forgiving (Or /gasp, choreographed).

Rather I'd like to bring the original Amdapor Keep to your attention. That in my opinion was the perfect expert dungeon. Why?

it wasn't excessively hard or complex, I'd argue that the current crop of dungeon bosses are far far more technical than what we had in AK back then. Rather what made it a fantastic dungeon was that it copied and drilled you in key mechanics that you would later need to deal with Titan HM and Garuda. And by drilled I mean that whilst the mechanics were pretty simple, the dungeon wouldn't let you slack off. If you ignored stuff, it'd kill you or cripple your healer's GCDs whilst they fight to keep you alive.

Compare that to Skalla where it's really quite viable to just ignore a very significant percentage of the AoEs and such.

TLDR: AK taught players the foundation of skills to deal with Titan HM, Kugane and Skalla teach people that it's very viable to watch another screen whilst mashing 1-2-3.

The perceived difficulty of 4.0's primals is somewhat irrelevant really, the issue here is the disparity between them and the expert roulettes. Those dungeon's don't need to be harder, they just need to show players relevant mechanics in a manner that makes them pay attention.