Would you like an in-game parser?

[Taika]

If you don't want to participate in the higher content don't try to demonize a proper tool for people who do by highlighting possible drawbacks and negative sideeffects and mix it up with your own fears while ignoring all possible positive sideeffects and the intended use.

Also, if you don't want to participate in the higher content, this discussion doesn't concern you in the first place, since people are only asking it for Savage, Extremes and Ultimate... So why object it when you will never have to deal with it, and it can actually help people who do wish to do that content? (If I have missed posts where people are asking it for leveling or casual content without enrages, feel free to point them out to me though.)

[DeaconMoore]

(If I have missed posts where people are asking it for leveling or casual content without enrages, feel free to point them out to me though.)

It needs to be in all content. You don't learn to dps in end game. You learn to dps then go to end game and learn the fights. Why deny console players what pc players already got?

[Legion88]

It needs to be in all content. You don't learn to dps in end game. You learn to dps then go to end game and learn the fights. Why deny console players what pc players already got?

In general people should figure out a decent rotation while leveling and practice on a dummy to learn it.

But in leveling is just a low gain out of a parser because of missing skills.
Also in casual content it really isn't needed. I'm running dungeons to get into the jobs flows in duties so i wouldn't want to be judged by my performance in a job i haven't mastered yet or i play to relax, that's what casual content is for.
In SSS and higher endgame content It is a complete other thing, cause it is a kind of competition.

[DeaconMoore]

In general people should figure out a decent rotation while leveling and practice on a dummy to learn it.

But in leveling is just a low gain out of a parser because of missing skills.
Also in casual content it really isn't needed. I'm running dungeons to get into the jobs flows in duties so i wouldn't want to be judged by my performance in a job i haven't mastered yet or i play to relax, that's what casual content is for.
In SSS and higher endgame content It is a complete other thing, cause it is a kind of competition.

And how do you know the rotation is good? How do you know what you melded is good? How will you find out if what you want to meld is better or not? A parser outside of endgame.

Yeah, it isn't needed in leveling content. Hell you can play just fine without one period. But being able to compare yourself and track improvements outside endgame helps you know what you are doing when you do hit end game.

[Legion88]

And how do you know the rotation is good? How do you know what you melded is good? How will you find out if what you want to meld is better or not? A parser outside of endgame.

Yeah, it isn't needed in leveling content. Hell you can play just fine without one period. But being able to compare yourself and track improvements outside endgame helps you know what you are doing when you do hit end game.

A parser in SSS or on dummies, there you can test your melds and rotation.
For casual and leveling content a performance ranking would be sufficient imo.

[DeaconMoore]

A parser in SSS or on dummies, there you can test your melds and rotation.
For casual and leveling content a performance ranking would be sufficient imo.

Ok, so I just did a dungeon and it told me I got an A- at the end. What exactly does that even mean though? How far off am I from an A or A+? Was I almost a B+? Was it just a lucky string of crits that one fight that pushed me there? How do I find out? Parser is how. A general ranking grade is just epeen stroking, it doesn't really tell you much. The actual numbers tell you what's going on.

[Legion88]

Ok, so I just did a dungeon and it told me I got an A- at the end. What exactly does that even mean though? How far off am I from an A or A+? Was I almost a B+? Was it just a lucky string of crits that one fight that pushed me there? How do I find out? Parser is how. A general ranking grade is just epeen stroking, it doesn't really tell you much. The actual numbers tell you what's going on.

Maybe you are right with your stand.
I can only talk from my pov and for the lower endgame it should be personal only.
So you can analyze your own performance without being able to judge others.
For preformed parties an option to make it a whole party parse would also be a good point.
I think this would be a good middleground we two can agree on.

For high endgame (Extreme, Savage and Ultimate) I think a parse needs no discussion, it's a must.
Not only to analyze your own performance also to analyze party synergies and weaknesses, especially in statics.

I just wanted to chime in on a few points here. The first being that leveling does nothing to teach you what your rotation is, there is no tutorial on how your job is supposed to function. If you are someone that doesn't look up guides on how a job is supposed to play or at the very least read the tooltips on your abilities, something that quite a few people already don't do given how often the topic of people not using aoe's in large trash pulls comes up, chances are they won't ever learn how their job is supposed to function or even play at a decent level because they can't be bothered doing any level of research because "It's their sub" and they will play how they wan't.


The second point is that practice dummies are a terrible and flawed metric to gauge someones overall performance. I'm talking about your ability to push the damage required on a fight on top of executing all the mechanics perfectly, since the dummy is just a stationary target where you have a time limit to do as much damage that is required to pass the enrage. The only way to accurately improve your performance on a fight to fight basis is by having a tool to measure how much damage your doing, what mistakes you made and what you could have done better, while you are progressing on the actual encounter itself aka a parser.

At the end of the day, we all have our own definition of what we view as relaxing and fun when we play mmos. I personally like having a tool that let's me see how much I'm contributing to the group, regardless of what level of content it is. While it may not be needed, there are those of us that get enjoyment out of playing our jobs as optimally as we can and even more rewarding when you are performing well alongside others. Cheers.

You see people not learning while leveling, reading tooltips or guides wont learn with a parser, because they don't care or can't be bothered.

For your second thought, dummies are a very good tool to memorize and practice your rotation, also to measure the performance of different meld settings. The application from dummy to the "real" fight has to be in the fight of course and I never denied this.

For your last point, yes, we have all our own definition, but nothing prevents you to play your job at highest performance without a live display of your parse or the parse of others.

[Selova]

snip.

I just wanted to chime in on a few points here. The first being that leveling does nothing to teach you what your rotation is, there is no tutorial on how your job is supposed to function. If you are someone that doesn't look up guides on how a job is supposed to play or at the very least read the tooltips on your abilities, something that quite a few people already don't do given how often the topic of people not using aoe's in large trash pulls comes up, chances are they won't ever learn how their job is supposed to function or even play at a decent level because they can't be bothered doing any level of research because "It's their sub" and they will play how they wan't.


The second point is that practice dummies are a terrible and flawed metric to gauge someones overall performance. I'm talking about your ability to push the damage required on a fight on top of executing all the mechanics perfectly, since the dummy is just a stationary target where you have a time limit to do as much damage that is required to pass the enrage. The only way to accurately improve your performance on a fight to fight basis is by having a tool to measure how much damage your doing, what mistakes you made and what you could have done better, while you are progressing on the actual encounter itself aka a parser.

At the end of the day, we all have our own definition of what we view as relaxing and fun when we play mmos. I personally like having a tool that let's me see how much I'm contributing to the group, regardless of what level of content it is. While it may not be needed, there are those of us that get enjoyment out of playing our jobs as optimally as we can and even more rewarding when you are performing well alongside others. Cheers.

[Taika]

It needs to be in all content. You don't learn to dps in end game. You learn to dps then go to end game and learn the fights. Why deny console players what pc players already got?

You only get your full rotation at level 70 (on most jobs at least) so you can't really practice your opener and basic rotation before that. And for that we already have a tool available for everyone: SSS dolls. Those are great for learning and testing your basic rotation, and then you'll have to adjust that rotation for each fight specifically while you're learning those fights anyway.

DPS doesn't really matter in any story content (there are exceptions, of course), and it's content meant for absolutely everyone. No one should need a parser to learn their job well enough to get through an expert dungeon or story primal (yes there are some really bad players out there, but they can be given advice even without using a parser, since it's not hard to see if someone isn't using their abilities).

Savage, extremes and Ultimate are a different thing because of their tight DPS checks: in those fight you need to know if you and your team members are doing good enough to be able to beat the fight in the first place. That's why parser is absolutely needed for those. I still think it should be added as an optimal feature though, so people can still organise parties without running one if they so wish.

[DeaconMoore]

You only get your full rotation at level 70 (on most jobs at least) so you can't really practice your opener and basic rotation before that. And for that we already have a tool available for everyone: SSS dolls. Those are great for learning and testing your basic rotation, and then you'll have to adjust that rotation for each fight specifically while you're learning those fights anyway.

DPS doesn't really matter in any story content (there are exceptions, of course), and it's content meant for absolutely everyone. No one should need a parser to learn their job well enough to get through an expert dungeon or story primal (yes there are some really bad players out there, but they can be given advice even without using a parser, since it's not hard to see if someone isn't using their abilities).

Savage, extremes and Ultimate are a different thing because of their tight DPS checks: in those fight you need to know if you and your team members are doing good enough to be able to beat the fight in the first place. That's why parser is absolutely needed for those. I still think it should be added as an optimal feature though, so people can still organise parties without running one if they so wish.

You don't build up your knowledge of how to play your class in end game without getting kicked. You build up your knowledge of how to play your class as you play it leveling up to the current cap then you finish polishing it out at cap. The parser early on serves the same purposes as it does later on.