Would you like an in-game parser?

[Kaurie]

Being able to complete the duty means what? Back in the day, parties wiped many, many times to Titan HM. Is one wipe enough to mean that a player cannot complete the duty? Are two wipes enough? Where do you draw the line?

The line is drawn dependent on the circumstances.

For example, back 1.5 years ago, when we had 160-170 ilvl gear and entered Bismark EX, it wasn't uncommon for people to pull 2.x numbers. I'd be in groups where I had ~900 DPS, 2nd DPS was ~700, 3rd was ~500, 4th was ~300 - tanks were both around ~500. We'd miss the DPS checks, where no mechanics were necessary, we just couldn't kill things in time (i.e. the snakes). Wipes were not a result of people learning the fight, it was a result of them not learning how to DPS. Sitting there for 10 more wipes changed nothing and we all abandoned. Then the next group of people would kick the MCH who was pulling 700, and the guy with 300 DPS was raging at everyone saying "man I wish I could get a group that could do this! I KNOW WHAT I AM DOING, why is it so hard to find a group that does??"

If we are talking about things in the MSQ, or light party content, or normal/hard mode (not raid or alliance) content, then I think that such judgements have no purpose. Because in general, parties are capable of clearing such content with ease, even with sub par performance. Titan HM being an obvious exception to that (at the time), and if you remember it was quite contentious at the time too...

Indeed, I would not kick someone from light party content, i.e. expert roulette. I do find a group parser would be useful in those situations for a number of reasons. Lower DPS players could see that they are consistently below average (even below the tanks) and might think to work on it. Further, Astrologians could see that even though we have a monk in the party, (s)he is pulling 50% of the DPS as the SMN and maybe they should pop balance on the SMN and not the MNK.

For EX content, raids and alliance content I view things a bit differently because that is optional content, and by undertaking it you are accepting that it's a greater challenge and therefore better than average performance is expected. If you are framing your situation about kicking a player for poor performance in EX/raid/alliance content, I can see your point. If it's in 'ordinary' content, I do not.

Interesting perspective. I see all content as optional. I only do expert roulettes 5x per week until I have my 4 or so items that require it and stop and then continue raiding. I have gone patches where I've done the expert dungeons a total of 6 times (I've been to Hullbreaker Hard 2 or maybe 3 times?). I've been to A9S at least 5x as much as I've ever been to Weeping City, etc. That said, for what you define as ordinary content, my comment above applies.

However, I still feel that kicking for performance is a problem. On the other hand if you PF'd and made clear the expectations of the group, I don't see an issue because you clearly set the expectation. But, if you DF'd it, short of someone intentionally sabotaging your run, I think you need to be careful about insta-kicking because you think they are not performing well enough.

That's an alright perspective. I think kicking in general is a dick move. Even if someone is rude, kicking someone takes away someone elses enjoyment to increase your own. In that sense, you're no different than the person harassing, who is ruining your experience for the benefit of themselves. I find kicking for poor performance (intentional or not) to be one of the few acceptable excuses to kick someone, as they are preventing actual completion of the duty, but only if it is actually preventing completion (i.e. not going to kick someone with low dps in expert, just because it will take 17 minutes instead of 12).

To bring this back to the original topic, and relate it to this discussion, using parsers in content outside of the EX/raid/alliance tier of content is pretty well pointless and open to abuse. I say this because the fundamental truth of the topic is this; With or without a parser, with or without a coach, with or without being berated over performance, players who want to improve will seek ways to improve and players who do not, will not. Parsers won't change that. I think we all know that this is true.

I strongly disagree with this statement. Plenty of people have no idea that they are doing as poorly as they are. I can't count how many times I've finished expert and had the other DPS exclaim, "that was the fastest run ever!" despite it being one of my slower runs. These players could see that their DPS is below average, below the tanks, below the healers, and they could do something about it. Will everyone? no. Will some? yes. It's also very useful for teamwork and buffs - most notably AST and Balance. I know that if I mained AST, I'd want my buffs to be used to the optimum, and that means placing balance on the top DPS and not just a random DPS.

The discussion about kicking people is really a distraction in this topic. Perhaps people are trying to find a justification for having public parsers so they can valiate their reasons for kicking people? Perhaps it's just about a distorted example to justify the presence of a parser? I don't know and I don't really care because those who want to improve will, and those who do not will not. Parsers and/or kicking people in DF over performance, will never change that.

I somewhat agree. I strongly want a parser and think it would benefit the game immensely. Is it required for me personally, not really. Do I have a desire to kick people, not really. I just think a parser is better for the community.

[Kosmos992k]

I strongly disagree with this statement. Plenty of people have no idea that they are doing as poorly as they are. I can't count how many times I've finished expert and had the other DPS exclaim, "that was the fastest run ever!" despite it being one of my slower runs. These players could see that their DPS is below average, below the tanks, below the healers, and they could do something about it. Will everyone? no. Will some? yes. It's also very useful for teamwork and buffs - most notably AST and Balance. I know that if I mained AST, I'd want my buffs to be used to the optimum, and that means placing balance on the top DPS and not just a random DPS.

It's interesting. In this discussion there is more agreement than disagreement - which seems to be the case most often. The above is the reason why I have no problem with the possibility of a personal parser that remains private. I can see an argument for those being training aids, and you could work with friends and compare results while learning/training on a job.

I understand your point that many who are not pulling their weight at all might be oblivious to that. But you and I both know that we do not need a parser to see when another player is playing severely below normal ability. The question is whether having numbers to back up that judgement helps the situation. I don't think it does because your judgement is the same, you would just have numbers for 'proof' if required. But depending on your approach and the sensitivity of the other player your message can be welcomed or ignored, or even treated as provocation. Having the numbers wouldn't change that.

I think we agree on many of the individual issues, but perhaps on this one specific point we still disagree? Either way, let me ask you, if there was a personal parser built into the game as a training aid, but the numbers were private unless you share them in chat or something, would that not help in the way that most people argue a parser will help?

[Kaurie]

It's interesting. In this discussion there is more agreement than disagreement - which seems to be the case most often. The above is the reason why I have no problem with the possibility of a personal parser that remains private. I can see an argument for those being training aids, and you could work with friends and compare results while learning/training on a job.

A personal parser doesn't help either issue though. You won't know your DPS is good/bad if you have 0 idea what other people are doing. You go into expert and do 1500 DPS, grrrreeeaaat! I rock! Activate group parser and see the tank did 1200 and the other DPS did 2400.
Astrologians won't be able to plan their party buffs on the higher DPS if they cannot see the groups DPS.

I understand your point that many who are not pulling their weight at all might be oblivious to that. But you and I both know that we do not need a parser to see when another player is playing severely below normal ability. The question is whether having numbers to back up that judgement helps the situation. I don't think it does because your judgement is the same, you would just have numbers for 'proof' if required. But depending on your approach and the sensitivity of the other player your message can be welcomed or ignored, or even treated as provocation. Having the numbers wouldn't change that.

That depends what you mean. I have seen lots of players that on the surface look like they are fine, but the mobs are dying incredibly slow and we see 2-3 extra mechanics that you normally skip. If you mean they are constantly dying, I can see that. I can't see if some job I don't even have at 60 is doing their rotation wrong.

I went to Bismark EX the other day with a couple of friends in raid finder. For fun, I LB'd the adds before the last jump on the back, figuring we are 100 ilvls above the content - we can 1 shot the back. We did not 1 shot the back and the melee DPS fell to his death and then raged at me for using the LB. I told them I figured we'd have the DPS to 1 shot. He started crying about how he didn't realize it was a newb party, and that I obviously am an idiot for using the LB which was obviously required. I told him maybe if his DPS was higher, then we wouldn't have needed it. He said, "I know my DPS, my DPS is fine". My friend posted up the log, it was IIRC around ~1800 DPS for me, 1000, 800 and 300 for the other 3 DPS. The 300 was the guy raging (not exaggerated numbers, but it's been a few weeks, I may be off by a small margin). This guy obviously thought he knew what he was doing, but obviously didn't. A group parser would have shown him prior to creating confrontation for no reason.

I should add, I had 0 idea that the guys DPS was going to be that low based off the fight itself.

I think we agree on many of the individual issues, but perhaps on this one specific point we still disagree? Either way, let me ask you, if there was a personal parser built into the game as a training aid, but the numbers were private unless you share them in chat or something, would that not help in the way that most people argue a parser will help?

I think a personal parser has some advantages and some disadvantages. I also think that a personal parser would create more aggression than a group parser. Having everything in the open means that people can see what is up without having confrontation. If a DPS check is failed with personal logs, everyone has to report their numbers and people may lie or whatever. It just opens up another can of worms. As said earlier, a personal parser would also be unhelpful for buffs, and for determining how your DPS compares in 'ordinary' content.

[RobbieH]

Astrologians won't be able to plan their party buffs on the higher DPS if they cannot see the groups DPS.

Not entirely true, the Hate meter is a "hint" at who's doing more DPS, exception for openers (a bad DPS probably doesn't do a good opener to begin with) and if Quelling Strikes is used, even then if the hate bar on the other DPS is too small (exception for Monk due to being somewhat slow starters) don't use on them, or simply wait a bit before buffing people.

One thing is to check the gear, Raid Gear and/or Sophia weapon should indicate good players, still this doesn't mean they aren't bad, might be someone who got A12S weapon for a Job he doesn't play and is giving it a try.

In the end yes, for Astro is kinda hit and miss without parser.

[Kaurie]

Not entirely true, the Hate meter is a "hint" at who's doing more DPS, exception for openers (a bad DPS probably doesn't do a good opener to begin with) and if Quelling Strikes is used, even then if the hate bar on the other DPS is too small (exception for Monk due to being somewhat slow starters) don't use on them, or simply wait a bit before buffing people.

One thing is to check the gear, Raid Gear and/or Sophia weapon should indicate good players, still this doesn't mean they aren't bad, might be someone who got A12S weapon for a Job he doesn't play and is giving it a try.

In the end yes, for Astro is kinda hit and miss without parser.

Yeah, there are definitely a few queues, but nothing concrete. Hate meter is notoriously unhelpful vs say AoE. If we are fighting 5 mobs and a melee single targets for 1k DPS and I AOE for 3k DPS, I am doing 3x the damage, but have 60% of the hate on the mob the melee is targeting.

There is also issues such as pets reducing your hate - Garuda does ~20-25% of the damage on single target, so there is a constant 20-25% reduction in my personal hate generation. Then there are also differences with hate reductions skills.

Finally, this also requires that the AST be targeting the mob, where they may be targeting the tank and want to just quickly toss out the card.

[RobbieH]

Yeah, there are definitely a few queues, but nothing concrete. Hate meter is notoriously unhelpful vs say AoE. If we are fighting 5 mobs and a melee single targets for 1k DPS and I AOE for 3k DPS, I am doing 3x the damage, but have 60% of the hate on the mob the melee is targeting.

There is also issues such as pets reducing your hate - Garuda does ~20-25% of the damage on single target, so there is a constant 20-25% reduction in my personal hate generation. Then there are also differences with hate reductions skills.

Finally, this also requires that the AST be targeting the mob, where they may be targeting the tank and want to just quickly toss out the card.

But in this case you'd want to use the buff on whatever Job is better at AOE DPS, it's still a hit and miss but there are guaranteed gains if the person is doing AOE even if poorly.

Just to be sure, make sure they used AOE skills before buffing them.

[Kaurie]

But in this case you'd want to use the buff on whatever Job is better at AOE DPS, it's still a hit and miss but there are guaranteed gains if the person is doing AOE even if poorly.

Just to be sure, make sure they used AOE skills before buffing them.

It's just not necessarily true. Some people are truly terrible at their AoE. This is why a parser would be useful.

[JunseiKei]

But in this case you'd want to use the buff on whatever Job is better at AOE DPS, it's still a hit and miss but there are guaranteed gains if the person is doing AOE even if poorly.

Just to be sure, make sure they used AOE skills before buffing them.

I've seen ninjas and dragoons out AoE DPS a summoner. I wish I were kidding. I had to ask my husband, hey, is this person really pulling this, or did it break? Well, it wasn't broken.

[JunseiKei]

Not entirely true, the Hate meter is a "hint" at who's doing more DPS, exception for openers (a bad DPS probably doesn't do a good opener to begin with) and if Quelling Strikes is used, even then if the hate bar on the other DPS is too small (exception for Monk due to being somewhat slow starters) don't use on them, or simply wait a bit before buffing people.

One thing is to check the gear, Raid Gear and/or Sophia weapon should indicate good players, still this doesn't mean they aren't bad, might be someone who got A12S weapon for a Job he doesn't play and is giving it a try.

In the end yes, for Astro is kinda hit and miss without parser.

This doesn't account for people who buy content from those that can carry in exchange for gil. Bards and Machinists tend to be high enmity generators, but tend to not have nearly as much DPS as a melee or caster. Even if someone is #4 on the enmity list, it doesn't tell you how high it is; or rather, how low it might actually be. Not even taking into account an off-tank that is holding at #2 on enmity.