Would you like an in-game parser?

[Kosmos992k]

We're talking hypothetically if parsers are added. You said that poor play is only a valid reason to kick someone if they are intentionally playing bad, but not if it is to an arbitrary standard. I wanted to know if you feel that not having the ability to complete the duty counted as arbitrary. It sounds as if you do.

Personally, I find that an odd stance, but at least we cleared it up.

Being able to complete the duty means what? Back in the day, parties wiped many, many times to Titan HM. Is one wipe enough to mean that a player cannot complete the duty? Are two wipes enough? Where do you draw the line?

If we are talking about things in the MSQ, or light party content, or normal/hard mode (not raid or alliance) content, then I think that such judgements have no purpose. Because in general, parties are capable of clearing such content with ease, even with sub par performance. Titan HM being an obvious exception to that (at the time), and if you remember it was quite contentious at the time too...

For EX content, raids and alliance content I view things a bit differently because that is optional content, and by undertaking it you are accepting that it's a greater challenge and therefore better than average performance is expected. If you are framing your situation about kicking a player for poor performance in EX/raid/alliance content, I can see your point. If it's in 'ordinary' content, I do not.

However, I still feel that kicking for performance is a problem. On the other hand if you PF'd and made clear the expectations of the group, I don't see an issue because you clearly set the expectation. But, if you DF'd it, short of someone intentionally sabotaging your run, I think you need to be careful about insta-kicking because you think they are not performing well enough.

That's where the whole judgement aspect of the advice about whether or not performance is a valid reason to kick someone comes into play. It's not entirely cut and dried.

To bring this back to the original topic, and relate it to this discussion, using parsers in content outside of the EX/raid/alliance tier of content is pretty well pointless and open to abuse. I say this because the fundamental truth of the topic is this; With or without a parser, with or without a coach, with or without being berated over performance, players who want to improve will seek ways to improve and players who do not, will not. Parsers won't change that. I think we all know that this is true.

The discussion about kicking people is really a distraction in this topic. Perhaps people are trying to find a justification for having public parsers so they can valiate their reasons for kicking people? Perhaps it's just about a distorted example to justify the presence of a parser? I don't know and I don't really care because those who want to improve will, and those who do not will not. Parsers and/or kicking people in DF over performance, will never change that.

The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good, because I expect if you're going to be participating in team-based content then you're going to want to play your part in said team.

Since that team is random, you cannot have any reasonable expectation other than warm bodies holding controllers. That is the point of DF, it's for everyone, whether they are good, bad or indifferent, whether they play like pro-bros or newbies. It's everyone and DF exists explicitly for that purpose.

If you don't, then I will give you advice or ask you to participate if you're just doing cartwheels. If then you decide to still play poorly or not at all, then I'm starting a vote dismiss on you. You bring up "he pays the same sub you do, you're both equal" - but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions - this applies across the board to tanks, healers, and DPS. This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".

You do realize that Party Finder is for what you want, and Duty Finder was created so that players without a group could at least find warm bodies to fill the roster right?

[RobbieH]

The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good

This is like a Job, you go do your work nicely done and then you expect your colleagues to do the same, yet you find yourself sometimes doing THEIR job. And you get paid the same.

Welcome to the human world, real life reflects here.

but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Sorry but this is an invalid argument, people like to vote "yes" just because, or they're with friends and there's still the thing that you can still get kicked if the majority votes yes, which doesn't mean others voted no.

I'm going to quote myself from previous page:

There's this one time (somewhere in the last 5 runs i was doing in Research Facility (150 Lore dungeon) so i could finish Ninja i240 Anima), i went ahead and trigger the elevator after 2nd boss to make it a little bit faster, i got warned by the tank not to pull again (apparently triggering the elevator is a pull) or he would kick me, i proceed to ask how is that a pull and got kicked.

This is an example of vote kick abuse and that premade parties prove that voting "yes" is not an argument but rather a choice of "i'm with my friends so i vote yes".

People who are playing with friends will for the most part vote yes, as will they vote no if it's to kick one of their friends.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions

Yeah let's find a way to fire co-workers that are bad while we're at it, then we'll get more bad ones and still find ourselves doing their work.

The same will happen in the game.

This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".

Yes, i'm sure ALL JP players are flawless, let's all transfer to JP and leave the bad players to themselves, let's jump ship.

Do you know why they strive? Because they help each other, in Europe and Americas people like to criticize but not help each other at all.

What have people been doing the last few pages? Complain, have they helped "bad players" meanwhile? No.

TL;DR There's a mentor system, when it came out it was nice to show off the crown icon, but 95% of those people didn't help anyone, being them new or old players. No let's all complain, it's easier. Now some of those people who could have been taught the game better are bad players, alright.

[SpookyGhost]

Since that team is random, you cannot have any reasonable expectation other than warm bodies holding controllers. That is the point of DF, it's for everyone, whether they are good, bad or indifferent, whether they play like pro-bros or newbies. It's everyone and DF exists explicitly for that purpose.

Random means you can get anyone, but if you're going to queue for something that's team-based you, as a person, should realize that you're going to need to participate in that team. DF is what you make it, and NA has decided to make it a clusterf**k by having this mentality of "it's okay to be bad because it's DF". It doesn't need to be this way.

You do realize that Party Finder is for what you want, and Duty Finder was created so that players without a group could at least find warm bodies to fill the roster right?

DF was around before PF existed. DF was to put together a party using people from across the Data Center who wanted to participate in that content. It's important, imo, to think about how DF ended up the way it has as you can look at JP's DF and see a completely different result.

[...]

I'm not replying to this because it's just going to keep going back and forth. Let's just agree to disagree.

[Laerune]

A part of me wants the parsers, but another part of me remembers how parsers played a big role in World of Warcrafts community becoming very toxic. Parsers are amazing when playing with friends/raid, because those players want to help you improve, so they will criticize your actions in a polite way and you, know that there is no malice behind those actions. When playing with strangers, the parsers will be used to demean and insult other players, which is something that Yoshi-P does not want to see in this game (this is one of the reasons, why we can not whisper to each other during dungeon runs) period.

Personaly, I think the harm that the (official) parsers will bring, will outweigh the benefits that it brings to the community. We already have level 60 players kicking newcomers from the leveling roulette dungeons, because they are too slow for them. Imagine if they had parsers aswell, they kick, post the parser to demean them infront of the group use this information to stroke their epeen.

The best thing would be to add personal parsers, this way players that want to improve can use it to better themselves. SE could release data on what the avarage DPS should for each class when they have full ilevel 250/260/270 etc and players can use those data to compare themselves.

[Kosmos992k]

Random means you can get anyone, but if you're going to queue for something that's team-based you, as a person, should realize that you're going to need to participate in that team. **snip**
DF was around before PF existed. DF was to put together a party using people from across the Data Center who wanted to participate in that content. It's important, imo, to think about how DF ended up the way it has as you can look at JP's DF and see a completely different result.

My reply was eaten by a keypress. So here is a summary.

Teams exist to help each other.
DF exists to help players without a group to find one.
Leveling roulette and adventurer in need bonus exist within DF because DF is there for all players including those learning and those who are new. That is what DF is primarily for.
DF is NOT a recruitment lobby for expert end-gamers to fulfill your fantasy of a pro-bro party to run Sastasha.
PF was added to allow people to assemble their own team because the randomness of DF created unbalanced teams (unbalanced in terms of ability and expertise). People requested it to alleviate that issue.

So, in short, you are wrong about Duty Finder, and Party Finder/Raid Finder is what you are looking for.

[RobbieH]

I'm not replying to this because it's just going to keep going back and forth. Let's just agree to disagree.

You're not going to reply because you know it's true whether you like it or not.

Either way if people want a parser they already have one, if PS4 players want to parse ask friends on PC with it to do it for them.

"But but a parser is against TOS", must be why they already banned all the people who are on a certain website, especially World First teams who use Parsers and triggers.

There would be like 5% of the Raid community left if they banned people who use parsers.

The parser wasn't added in-game for a simple reason: toxicity towards bad players.

This would give a bad image of the community, if you check reddit there's multiple stories of toxic behaviour, do you think it's good for the game to have a community considered as toxic? This isn't League of Legends.

If they wanted a parser in the game, they would have added it LONG ago, the numbers are already there, they're just not being shown to players.

[WeekendSoja]

Snip

There are PF groups like that each new release of EX content, "3 strikes and you're out!" "Mistakes will not be tolerated" "High DPS". The list goes on.

Using PF and Ex primals in your example pretty much has only one answer and that is yes, difference in playstyles also refer to the inability to clear content.

A better example is saying, "In a DF expert roulette, on trash pulls the monk does 2600, the BLM does 1100, the WAR does 500 and the WHM does 50 (assize). On the bosses the monk does 2100, blm does 900, war does 1200, and the WHM does 20 (aero 3)." Everyone is ilvl 260, tank has not lost hate once and the healer has kept everyone alive.

Now using the "arbitrary standard", would there be a kick for obvious 1-2-3 blm 50 rotation abuse? Or is this an example of apathy and the BLM is perfectly fine because even with his 1-2-3 rotation, the monk and war carried the party dps?

[JunseiKei]

Being able to complete the duty means what? Back in the day, parties wiped many, many times to Titan HM. Is one wipe enough to mean that a player cannot complete the duty? Are two wipes enough? Where do you draw the line?

If we are talking about things in the MSQ, or light party content, or normal/hard mode (not raid or alliance) content, then I think that such judgements have no purpose. Because in general, parties are capable of clearing such content with ease, even with sub par performance. Titan HM being an obvious exception to that (at the time), and if you remember it was quite contentious at the time too...

~snip~

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait. I wanna interject here:

:P A lot of those things didn't even have enrages. Titan will go on forever until the timer runs out (I think? I've not actually tried it). This is, assuming, you just took care off adds (gaols) and just did mechanics, I'm pretty sure the fight will just keep going on. You didn't need DPS for those; they were mechanic checkers. A parse didn't really mean much in those kinds of fights when simply living meant you'd eventually down the thing. At that point, gauging your DPS meant you had the fight down to a science and were looking to maximize now.

[Kosmos992k]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaait. I wanna interject here:

:P A lot of those things didn't even have enrages. Titan will go on forever until the timer runs out (I think? I've not actually tried it). This is, assuming, you just took care off adds (gaols) and just did mechanics, I'm pretty sure the fight will just keep going on. You didn't need DPS for those; they were mechanic checkers. A parse didn't really mean much in those kinds of fights when simply living meant you'd eventually down the thing.

Not so much anymore.

Titan's heart phase was an insta wipe if failed. Tumult did a craptastic amount of damage if not mitigated, landslide was permadeath, and losing a healer to that was an immediate wipe. You could in theory make the final phase run as long as the instance clock allows assuming that everyone can dodge all the bombs and mitigate the tumults and avoid the landslides, etc... Of course Titan has been 'eased' many times, since then. But yeah, the heart phase was a pretty hard 'enrage'.

What always ticked me off was groups who would not use LB to finish the heart in time and would then wipe. In the final phase if at least one healer and tank stayed alive, the instance could be finished, so long as the remaining players (even if it was just the healer and tank) could dodge everything, mitigate everything and chip away at Titan. but saving the LB for the final phase at the expense of a wipe to the heart was just plain annoying.

[JunseiKei]

You're not going to reply because you know it's true whether you like it or not.

Either way if people want a parser they already have one, if PS4 players want to parse ask friends on PC with it to do it for them.

"But but a parser is against TOS", must be why they already banned all the people who are on a certain website, especially World First teams who use Parsers and triggers.

There would be like 5% of the Raid community left if they banned people who use parsers.

The parser wasn't added in-game for a simple reason: toxicity towards bad players.

Parsers are FFXIV's worst kept secret. I have known people who did mention parsers in game and did get suspended for it. It's become a don't mention it in game, you're a-okay. However, careful what you say around people you don't know; someone can report you for it and you may end up coming face to face with a GM.