Would you like an in-game parser?

[RobbieH]

Kicking someone from a party for playing poorly isn't harassment.

[KarstenS]

Kicking someone from a party for playing poorly isn't harassment.

We had already an official statement in the forum confirming this as a valid reason to kick.

Seems some already have forgotten this.

[RobbieH]

We had already an official statement in the forum confirming this as a valid reason to kick.

Seems some already have forgotten this.

I didn't say anything O_O

Anyway, valid reason or not is a dumb choice for a simple reason:

Kicking players that are doing a bad job, example, their first time playing that content and they're doing poorly is simply stupid because they have to learn it, if they get kicked how will they learn?

"Oh but there's guides", no there aren't, if you get a new patch and play the content on first few days there's no guides at all, when 3.4 launched there were no guides, only hours later written guides appeared, for example, for normal Alex.

People get kicked from normal Alex on first day, they won't learn, so they have to queue again and risk getting kicked again by doing the same mistake because they didn't learn it, and no one explained them either because they probably don't know as well.

Then people forget that not everyone is equally skilled and there's a big gap between skill level among players in this game, that why for World Firsts teams test (key word, test, hence need training and experience) to see who are the best players in the FC, or even the server is the players choose to join those FCs.

Kicking players while they are still learning is absolutely stupid even from an official perspective because if it happens too much (they're actually bad players) they'll give up on the game and subs will be lost for the sake of epeen that can't be bothered to help/explain people that are learning.

There i said something now.

[Legion88]

Anyway, valid reason or not is a dumb choice for a simple reason:

Kicking players that are doing a bad job, example, their first time playing that content and they're doing poorly is simply stupid because they have to learn it, if they get kicked how will they learn?

Counter example: What is with the 1-2-3-DDs? I don't feel like i should someone explain on 60 how a rotation works, because he had 60 levels just to read his skills and figure out a suboptimalbutgood rotation by himself or look for a job guide or ask people outside of the duties.

Playing poorly isn't "you lost enochian/BotD while learning the fight"*.
Playing poorly is "spamming Thrust-Combo/Ice Mage at 60"*.
*Just examples for this particular subject

[RobbieH]

Counter example: What is with the 1-2-3-DDs? I don't feel like i should someone explain on 60 how a rotation works, because he had 60 levels just to read his skills and figure out a suboptimalbutgood rotation by himself or look for a job guide or ask people outside of the duties.

Playing poorly isn't "you lost enochian/BotD while learning the fight"*.
Playing poorly is "spamming Thrust-Combo/Ice Mage at 60"*.
*Just examples for this particular subject

Do Dungeon bosses have enrage?

Is everyone else doing proper DPS in normal Alex? Then you shouldn't care about 1-2-3 DDs.

[Legion88]

Do Dungeon bosses have enrage?

Unfortunately not...

Is everyone else doing proper DPS in normal Alex? Then you shouldn't care about 1-2-3 DDs.

So you are defending intentionally poor play only topped by AA-DDs or AFK-DDs?
And what do you refer to with proper? The maximum potential DPS for their gear or just enough to carry his own weight? For me proper DPS is the second one.

[RobbieH]

Unfortunately not...

Then what's the reason for kicking, let's say -- bad DDs in a Dungeon? It's not like they will stand in AOE or any damage mechanic intentionally considering they know them to begin with, just need patience, boss will die.

If you care so much about dungeon clear time go DPS yourself instead of queue as Healer or tank.

That's why i play summoner on Dungeon so i can melt adds, and Summoner single target DPS is also pretty good, not the best but pretty good.

So you are defending intentionally poor play only topped by AA-DDs or AFK-DDs?
And what do you refer to with proper? The maximum potential DPS for their gear or just enough to carry his own weight? For me proper DPS is the second one.

AFK should be kicked, but don't bring other subjects just to backup your claim, we're talking about poor DPS players not AFKs.

Considering we're talking about Alex normal you don't need top DPS on it by anyone, but one isn't expecting to go there to slack to begin with, it's not like a great DPS goes there to slack and do 50% of what he can do.

The problem here is, most healers won't DPS, MT won't change stances during certain parts where the boss isn't going to harm them, or can simply use DPS stance after aggro is secure and pop cooldowns to compensate, even most players who like to complain about bad players don't do this themselves, not to mention when the boss comes back and/or drops something that helps with DPS is for the MT to go directly in front of boss before Boss is available to target, since melee will probably be in positional spot already, not doing so will result in DPS loss caused by the MT, but this is something rarely seen, again we're talking about Normal, not Savage.

I'll give you an example, Nidhogg normal, which is far better than Sophia normal for second chance points, almost everytime i queue for it there's Bonus, Sophia seems to be about 20-33% chance for bonus.

However it is also harder than Sophia, because people seem to like to die there, so i go as SCH.

DPS ilvl between i210 and i220, one doesn't move to dodge a single thing (DRG), one DPS (Bard) had some gear bellow i200, was getting hit hard by stuff and spent most time dead ((especially during dives) even after Stoneskin and Adloq), the second DRG was doing fine until he got Jump-locked and died.

First run, not enough DPS during Adds (i was DPS as SCH, PLD was in DPS stance too), WHM was chilling.

Second run, Not enough DPS on adds, wipe again.

Third run, 2 DPS dead for a long time before Adds (died multiple times) adds finally go down, not long after the Boss comes back, 3 DPS dead already, then WHM dead.

I proceed to LB3 heal, before Boss died 2 DPS were dead again, it still went down after all the lack of DPS, and let's not forget it has enrage.

Sometimes a single person can make the difference, but people expect everyone to perform great when those same people are poor players themselves.

And i didn't vote kick, end of story.

There's this one time (somewhere in the last 5 runs i was doing in Research Facility (150 Lore dungeon) so i could finish Ninja i240 Anima), i went ahead and trigger the elevator after 2nd boss to make it a little bit faster, i got warned by the tank not to pull again (apparently triggering the elevator is a pull) or he would kick me, i proceed to ask how is that a pull and got kicked.

Despite reporting that event, do i need to explain myself how dumb and mean people can be? I was melting adds as SMN, i was doing 3 times more DPS than the Ninja on boss, and i got booted by bad players.

As you can see even "decent" players get kicked.

This isn't about people being bad at all, it's about epeen and idiotic players who think they're good when they're not.

[SpookyGhost]

Kicking players that are doing a bad job, example, their first time playing that content and they're doing poorly is simply stupid because they have to learn it, if they get kicked how will they learn?

Agreed, though generally as long as you say "first time" you're held to a lower standard than a person who's cleared/has experienced the whole fight.

Is everyone else doing proper DPS in normal Alex? Then you shouldn't care about 1-2-3 DDs.

If you one-shot the encounter then there's no real way to kick a 1-2-3 DPS so they get a free pass. This, however, doesn't mean that it's okay for one member of the team to kick rocks while the rest of the team is putting in effort. It's like playing basketball and one of your team members decides he wants to do cartwheels - even if you win, it wasn't cool of that dude to goof off. XIV, and to an extent most modern MMOs, don't have a focus on teamwork anymore so people think that they don't need to work as a team. "Sure, DPS A isn't pulling his weight, but we beat the boss so why does it matter?", you think and then DPS A goes off to join other DF groups with more of his kind and then DPS A's mentality floods half a group forcing that group to constantly wipe because of them. Had they learned what they were doing wasn't a good thing they would actually try to improve, and if you can visually see that your DPS numbers are lower than the rest of the DPS you'll know exactly what you need to improve on.

Like I said if you're new to an encounter then it's fine to pull low numbers because you're learning the fight. Once you've cleared the fight, though, you should aim to be doing better at it - even in stuff like Alexander NM.

The problem here is, most healers won't DPS, MT won't change stances during certain parts where the boss isn't going to harm them, or can simply use DPS stance after aggro is secure and pop cooldowns to compensate, even most players who like to complain about bad players don't do this themselves, not to mention when the boss comes back and/or drops something that helps with DPS is for the MT to go directly in front of boss before Boss is available to target, since melee will probably be in positional spot already, not doing so will result in DPS loss caused by the MT, but this is something rarely seen, again we're talking about Normal, not Savage.

This is partly true, but partly wrong. Yes, healers should be DPSing, tanks should be stance dancing, etc. etc. But that doesn't excuse DPS to play poorly. As an example if you have proper healer DPS, proper tank DPS, and 3 out of your 4 DPS are doing alright... then that 4th one who's doing cartwheels is making the run slower, forcing you to see more mechanics, and increasing the odds that you'll wipe or someone will die to them. The shorter the fight, the better. With all those same conditions and all the DPS putting in work then you've got a much more stable, condensed fight that has a higher chance of getting beaten.

[RobbieH]

If you one-shot the encounter then there's no real way to kick a 1-2-3 DPS so they get a free pass. This, however, doesn't mean that it's okay for one member of the team to kick rocks while the rest of the team is putting in effort. It's like playing basketball and one of your team members decides he wants to do cartwheels - even if you win, it wasn't cool of that dude to goof off. XIV, and to an extent most modern MMOs, don't have a focus on teamwork anymore so people think that they don't need to work as a team. "Sure, DPS A isn't pulling his weight, but we beat the boss so why does it matter?", you think and then DPS A goes off to join other DF groups with more of his kind and then DPS A's mentality floods half a group forcing that group to constantly wipe because of them. Had they learned what they were doing wasn't a good thing they would actually try to improve, and if you can visually see that your DPS numbers are lower than the rest of the DPS you'll know exactly what you need to improve on.

That's why you get a static and do content with them, you are paying a sub, so are bad players, every MMO has bad players, if you can't deal with them make a group of good players and go do your stuff, no one is forcing you to play with them, from the moment you use DF you are risking meeting those people.

Like i said they are paying a sub which contributes just like you for a better game, you can't force those people out just because they're bad, if people keep getting kicked they'll give up on the game just because "some" people don't realize they can make a group and do the duties instead of using DF.

This is partly true, but partly wrong. Yes, healers should be DPSing, tanks should be stance dancing, etc. etc. But that doesn't excuse DPS to play poorly. As an example if you have proper healer DPS, proper tank DPS, and 3 out of your 4 DPS are doing alright... then that 4th one who's doing cartwheels is making the run slower, forcing you to see more mechanics, and increasing the odds that you'll wipe or someone will die to them. The shorter the fight, the better.

It's not wrong, we're talking about Normal not Savage, stuff doesn't hit as Hard so there's less to Heal, if the healers are not DPSing even if for a bit, at least one of them, they're also doing a bad Job, especially Scholars with their MP management and Lustrate, even i DPS and use Selene in normal and people don't die, this on min ilvl (230) required to enter.

With all those same conditions and all the DPS putting in work then you've got a much more stable, condensed fight that has a higher chance of getting beaten.

Things will be slower, people will die, Tanks won't use Cooldowns (yes because there's only bad DPS, not bad Tanks or Healers), lose aggro, run around the boss in circles (this was common in ARR for some reason lol), fight for aggro, don't Tank swap, WHM that don't know how powerful Regen is, Scholars that only use EOS and the list goes on.

How many times did i queue for leveling roulette and got into boring Dzemael and Aurum vale, where then i have to aggro every mob "coz exp" and then people do low DPS and i'm stuck with them for 1h, not to mention them not eating the fruit and killing last Boss adds before they pop in Aurum Vale.

Welcome to DF, if you go in expecting everyone to be End Game Raid material then perhaps you shouldn't use DF at all.

[SpookyGhost]

That's why you[...]

The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good, because I expect if you're going to be participating in team-based content then you're going to want to play your part in said team. If you don't, then I will give you advice or ask you to participate if you're just doing cartwheels. If then you decide to still play poorly or not at all, then I'm starting a vote dismiss on you. You bring up "he pays the same sub you do, you're both equal" - but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions - this applies across the board to tanks, healers, and DPS. This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".