Would you like an in-game parser?

[Voltyblast]

What does this all mean? It is most curious! Does it mean instead there is a very vocal minority against parsers? I would like to know the answer! Why are they so vocal? What is it about parsers that makes that minority discuss it so much?

Well for starters we don't really know if that's a minority or not, since that a lot of players don't come over the forums to discuss things, so most of these information are not 100% accurate.

Still the "issue" is that parsers for them could cause toxicity because other games did it and ruined their community, while others say the opposite and show that recounts/parsers were only a minor part of the community being ruined, but for me it's more about "fear" because people already dismiss this topic (and any possible topic really) even before discussing the possible benefits. Because there are benefits on knowing your own damage.

Yet if people are so afraid of trying out though this discussion will go endlessly. On my behalf, parser helped me to realize my dps potential and it truely changed my gamestyle right now, to the point that I went full dps because now I enjoy it.
It is true that parsers could cause toxicity, but you can bet that parser is probably the -last- of the reasons that could cause it.

[Reynhart]

It is true that parsers could cause toxicity, but you can bet that parser is probably the -last- of the reasons that could cause it.

You're right about that...but since we already have all the other reasons in the game, do we really need to add that one ?

[Rawrz]

You're right about that...but since we already have all the other reasons in the game, do we really need to add that one ?

You know what makes me feel toxic? Having to ask someone for my Parse on content.

[Seraphix2407]

You're right about that...but since we already have all the other reasons in the game, do we really need to add that one ?

You know what makes me feel toxic?! 1-2 guy is in a party ''knows'' the fight but doesn't pull enough dps to make it out of enrage, then you try to help and I'm being called names like elitist, asshole, jerk etc you name it ;(.

[Voltyblast]

You're right about that...but since we already have all the other reasons in the game, do we really need to add that one ?

Only way to make this game non-toxic (and even then it might be nearly impossible even if you do this), is to remove every possible abusive thing that is inside. Things like chat, trading, housing, item level, damage, whispers, votekick, macroing, alt making, Roleplay, Emoting (suggestive emotes anyone?), FATEs (Oh yes, it can be abused: make the players unable to hit them and GG). List goes on and on...

As you can see parser is probably the last of the issue you should think about it.

[Reynhart]

As you can see parser is probably the last of the issue you should think about it.

Again, it's not because there are other toxic issues that we can just ignore what this one can do. Especially since it's been mentionned several times that Yoshi-P is worried by that.
It's not like I'm the only one who consider this.

And don't worry, parsers are not the only topic where I post.

[Voltyblast]

Again, it's not because there are other toxic issues that we can just ignore what this one can do. Especially since it's been mentionned several times that Yoshi-P is worried by that.
It's not like I'm the only one who consider this.

And don't worry, parsers are not the only topic where I post.

Worried about what? He has no idea what could happen if parsers become legit, we have no idea either. Nobody has an idea: all we have is conjecture, just theories about how other games "supposedly" became toxic because of the recounts and damage meters. People are just afraid, nothing more nothing else.

I mean let's take in consideration Wow (worst game ever, yadda yadda, nobody cares): why did it become so toxic? Well, recounts existed a long time ago before the big ordeal happened and, in my opinion, what ruined the community were two things:

1)Gearscore: gear had no distinct "level" and so people were less inclined to find the best gear. Also, there weren't just one or two sets to get and I remember as a tank that the Moroes trinket was one of the best trinket, easily lasting until Black Temple.
2)Dungeon tool: because of this people had no more need to group up within the server, severing contacts and limiting the grouping only for raiding and perhaps some heroics (and even then heroics done in Dungeon Finder aren't daily locked).

Now I ask: which of these do we currently posses? Exactly, both. And these two features alone ruined a lot of the moments that made WoW fun and skill based: I remember that people were only caring for high gearscore and groups of people I knew were essentially ignoring everyone for doing dungeon tool, since it was more convenient.

It's not very different in FFXIV since that Item level gates all content, having higher item level "automatically" means you're better (even if your dps is higher than that "higher level player"), and grouping up in your own server is anything but convenient, since you even lose your roulette reward if you make a full premade. Why wouldn't I want the more convenient way?

This once again begs the question: "Why are we worried for a tool that, overall, has shown to be less harmful than say, "item level" and "Dungeon finder"??

[Preypacer]

Worried about what? He has no idea what could happen if parsers become legit, we have no idea either. Nobody has an idea: all we have is conjecture, just theories about how other games "supposedly" became toxic because of the recounts and damage meters. People are just afraid, nothing more nothing else.

A rather naive question/argument.

How does he know? Well, multiple ways.

At the very least, a couple things known as "precedent" and “first-hand experience”.

First, and least of all, Yoshi-P has well over a decade of MMO experience, playing at a high/competitive level (high-ranked PvP'er in DAoC, etc). He has more experience in this genre than likely many posting on these very forums. He knows what MMO communities can breed, because he's been part of them, and has certainly seen the ugliness they can produce. He brings that experience/knowledge to bear when making decisions that he knows - again, from precedent/experience - can have a negative effect on the community in FFXIV - something he wants to avoid as much as possible, because providing a community already capable of hostility ways to be even more hostile is not good business sense.

The concern people have of parser data being abused quite likely comes from having and/or seeing just that happening, in myriad MMOs, over many years now. It didn't just arise out of thin air. If the tone around parser data had historically been a positive one; if people truly did use it as constructively and helpfully as some here claim/believe/predict it would, I doubt we'd be having that conversation.

The problem is, there are too many people who look for any way they can to belittle, ostracize and harass other players. Want examples? How many threads have been started on these forums where people are requesting more and more "valid" reasons to kick someone from a group, which all ultimately boil down to nothing more than their own arbitrary "personal standards" not being met? How many threads have been started where people are requesting more and more ways to exclude people from content on a similar basis? How many times do we see people - in-game and out - talking about how some person in their group "wasn't performing up to the poster's standard", even though the content was being cleared?

And people here are going to claim that if you were to put actual numbers in the hands of these people, that they aren't going to weaponize that data as yet one more way to bash, belittle and humiliate another player, while feeling emboldened that it would be 'officially supported'? Anyone trying to argue that is either extremely gullible, or thinks the rest of us are.

Secondly, and most of all, he happens to be the Producer and Director of this game. He has access to data that no one on these forums (unless they're Yoshi-P or someone at SE with that access) has access to. Speaking of parsers, they have access to numbers, chat logs, you name it. I believe it was the last Census where they'd parsed how many times people said “Yoshida!” in chat, across all servers on all Data Centers. That's the kind of data they have access to.

How complicated do you think it is for him - when considering whether an official parser is a good idea in this game - to ask one of his people to do a parse for instances of terms like “parser” or “parser numbers” in the different chat logs, and then to review the kind of discussions taking place around those terms? What do you think the chances are that he'd see substantially more than just a small handful of rather hostile, vitriolic exchanges, involving the parsers attacking other group members whom were – again, per other data Yoshi-P has access to – performing adequately within the requirements of the given content?

And before you say “that can't happen because it's not allowed...”, save your breath. It happens. It's happened in groups I've been in, much to even my surprise. Turns out some people in this game know it's not allowed, but simply don't care. They justify it (to themselves) by arguing that “the game is supposed to have it, but since SE hasn't implemented one, that they're “forced” to use one” (because it's always the victim narrative with these people – but that's a whole other pile of manure, and I digress). Their need to make sure another player knows “just how shitty they are and how they should quit the game”, for example,eclipses their concern over being banned for using unsanctioned 3rd party apps. To put it another way, their ego overpowers their better judgment.

Yoshi-P has access to all of that data. He doesn't have to “assume” how people will act – because he can already see how they are acting with his own eyes.

Now, I suspect you're going to dismiss all that, because it's not convenient to your narrative or goal. But that's the facts. Your insistence otherwise notwithstanding, his decisions are not based on 'conjecture', but on actual data, precedent and first-hand experience. His concerns and decisions are far more informed and substantiated than you seem to want to believe.

As I've said before… Want to change attitudes toward official parsers? Start by dealing with those within your own sub-community (the pro-parser folks) and shame those who use such data to shame others. Silence them. Ostracize them. Make it clear that they are the ones who aren't wanted in parties, not the people whom – for any number of reasons – are not performing as well as they potentially could be.

Now… A few other points I'd like to address.

The argument that SSS doesn't provide adequate information about DPS performance because there are no raid-like mechanics to deal with. That's a non-sequitur. If you've passed the SSS test for a given encounter, then clearly not being able to hit the needed DPS in the encounter isn't the problem. You've already proven you can. The SSS confirmed that. The problem is you're not familiar with the mechanics of the fight. You're unable to hit your required – and verifiably achievable – DPS because you're distracted by dealing with unfamiliar movements and positioning, etc.

As the fight becomes more familiar, and you learn the dance, know where to go, where to be, etc… the DPS will rise to its necessary levels automatically. Why? Because you'll have more time to focus on that since you're not running around like a headless chicken wondering what the hell is going on. This is common-sense, and even Yoshi-P has mentioned this, I believe, in one of the more recent Q&As. Yet, it amazes me how many times I see it argued that “SSS doesn't help because raid mechanics”.

Regarding how advice is not taken well by some players… yes, some players are simply that touchy that even offering advice with an ice-cream cone, a box of candy and a poem is going to be taken the wrong way. However, what some people try to pass off as “being helpful” beggars belief. I've seen people say things like “Dude, how did you get this far in the game without knowing how to play your job? You're supposed to be doing “x, y, z”. Or, “you're playing really badly, you need to watch some videos and learn to play right”, “Here's some advice on how not to suck” and other such abrasive remarks (all of which, while paraphrased, I've actually seen in party chat). Then these people are surprised when their “constructive criticism” is met with defensiveness or hostility.

Meanwhile, I've seen people who say things like, “Hey, -insert name here-, would you mind if I offered some tips on -insert role here-?”, or “I can suggest a good rotation that will help your DPS a lot, if you want”, or “Do you have “such and such skill” from “such and such class”? It's a really helpful skill you should try to get. It helps your “such and such” a lot”. I've also seen those kinds of remarks. Not surprisingly, the reaction to those people is 100% more positive. I hope I don't have to explain why.

The point is - before you complain about "people not accepting my advice" or "getting defensive" - consider the way that advice is being offered or stated.

Regarding people who claim that if they're doing (as a random example) 1500 dps, and another is "only" doing 1000 that you were "carrying that person", answer me this: Could you have cleared that content, in the same amount of time, and with the same efficacy without the 1000 dps person being there? If no, then they were contributing, you were not carrying them, and you should promptly get over yourself.

And lastly, if someone's in your group and says “Hey, I'm new, can anyone offer any helpful advice or tips for me?”, if all you're going to say is “Don't die”, or “don't step in the bad stuff, and don't die”… just shut up. You're not being helpful, nor are you trying to be. You're being an obnoxious douchebag. And if you are that person, and the new person makes a mistake, do not bitch them out or try to vote-kick them. They asked for tips/advice… you chose to be an ass.

[Seraphix2407]

..

People choose to be ass with and without parsers. People gets help but ignore it. You know why? Because they think they are doing good enough, being ignorant, it's in a humans nature. Also the whole yadayda Yoshida knows MMO community, he have also said many times (cba to find the videos and post he made) that using a parser is a very good tool to have. Problem is, if you use it, dont use it to insult people, that's where the challenge comes right? Now many here says many uses parsers in secret but yet you see less of those who use them talk shit, you see more of those bad toxic attitude people doing whatever they want and give a damn. If they weren't so ignorant and avoiding the issue there will be less of those ''asshats'' using parsers.

[Voltyblast]

A rather naive question/argument.

How does he know? Well, multiple ways.

At the very least, a couple things known as "precedent" and “first-hand experience”.

First, and least of all, Yoshi-P has well over a decade of MMO experience, playing at a high/competitive level (high-ranked PvP'er in DAoC, etc). He has more experience in this genre than likely many posting on these very forums. He knows what MMO communities can breed, because he's been part of them, and has certainly seen the ugliness they can produce. He brings that experience/knowledge to bear when making decisions that he knows - again, from precedent/experience - can have a negative effect on the community in FFXIV - something he wants to avoid as much as possible, because providing a community already capable of hostility ways to be even more hostile is not good business sense.

I doubt that he's the only person who has decades of years of experience in MMO. Infact I think I'm one the "youngest" when it comes to mmo experience (I'm only 27, but I've played dozens of mmos already: many others are probably twice as old). Sure he probably knows what it means, but I ask again this: how does he know that parser will ruin the game? As far as I'm concerned I don't see much toxicity due to parsers, I see toxicity due to OTHER things. I'm sure he knows (or at least has some information about it), but my point is that there's no absolute truth that parsers will ruin the community and in my case, I don't see many parser users blaming poor dps for their performance. So again, we have no solid proof.

The problem is, there are too many people who look for any way they can to belittle, ostracize and harass other players. Want examples? How many threads have been started on these forums where people are requesting more and more "valid" reasons to kick someone from a group, which all ultimately boil down to nothing more than their own arbitrary "personal standards" not being met? How many threads have been started where people are requesting more and more ways to exclude people from content on a similar basis? How many times do we see people - in-game and out - talking about how some person in their group "wasn't performing up to the poster's standard", even though the content was being cleared?

The game has only one rule: having the highest dps possible while doing mechanics flawlessly without dying. Anything else is irrelevant, but that little that there is has to be done perfectly or else you're not doing any good. My opinion here is that it's the game's fault that everything is based around pure damage, while mechanics are just a nuisance more than an actual tactics. In most mmorpgs I played tactics were made to so that some bosses were different than others and while there were dps checks, they were usually tame and rare. Plus, if you miss any mechanic you usually (USUALLY, as in not always) make it wipe. So people complain a lot because the game demands high skills in later content, which is the base of the game. I don't raid anymore but Coil required alot of work, work that didn't feel really satisfactory and that personally didn't click with me.

And people here are going to claim that if you were to put actual numbers in the hands of these people, that they aren't going to weaponize that data as yet one more way to bash, belittle and humiliate another player, while feeling emboldened that it would be 'officially supported'? Anyone trying to argue that is either extremely gullible, or thinks the rest of us are.

They already exist and, in addition, you're free to report them for harassing and shaming. I have one but I never harass anyone, even if they're terrible: everyone has to start somewhere afterall, but there are people who will harass them and they existed long ago. And parser users aren't the only players who harass others.

And before you say “that can't happen because it's not allowed...”, save your breath. It happens. It's happened in groups I've been in, much to even my surprise. Turns out some people in this game know it's not allowed, but simply don't care. They justify it (to themselves) by arguing that “the game is supposed to have it, but since SE hasn't implemented one, that they're “forced” to use one” (because it's always the victim narrative with these people – but that's a whole other pile of manure, and I digress). Their need to make sure another player knows “just how shitty they are and how they should quit the game”, for example,eclipses their concern over being banned for using unsanctioned 3rd party apps. To put it another way, their ego overpowers their better judgment.

As I've said before… Want to change attitudes toward official parsers? Start by dealing with those within your own sub-community (the pro-parser folks) and shame those who use such data to shame others. Silence them. Ostracize them. Make it clear that they are the ones who aren't wanted in parties, not the people whom – for any number of reasons – are not performing as well as they potentially could be.

You are right on the fact that it's not allowed and that it's not forced, however I can assure you that not everyone will use it to boost their ego. Proof? Me: I only use to help improving my dps and that's it and, as I mentioned several times, it was thanks to the parser that I found out that I was actually better than I imagined. Sure, some players are like you say, but not every parser user is that horrible and I actually met them. Don't generalize everyone into one category: not everyone plays the same.

The argument that SSS doesn't provide adequate information about DPS performance because there are no raid-like mechanics to deal with. That's a non-sequitur. If you've passed the SSS test for a given encounter, then clearly not being able to hit the needed DPS in the encounter isn't the problem. You've already proven you can. The SSS confirmed that. The problem is you're not familiar with the mechanics of the fight. You're unable to hit your required – and verifiably achievable – DPS because you're distracted by dealing with unfamiliar movements and positioning, etc.

As the fight becomes more familiar, and you learn the dance, know where to go, where to be, etc… the DPS will rise to its necessary levels automatically. Why? Because you'll have more time to focus on that since you're not running around like a headless chicken wondering what the hell is going on. This is common-sense, and even Yoshi-P has mentioned this, I believe, in one of the more recent Q&As. Yet, it amazes me how many times I see it argued that “SSS doesn't help because raid mechanics”

For starters, SSS dps isn't the same as in the real fight because 1) Your stats will be increased due to group bonus 2) Just like you said, movement. Let's assume I have 1500 dps: I can assure you that my dps won't be as high during the real fight, because there are a lot more scenarios where I have to survive a mechanic or two. And yes that's common sense. However you still have no idea how you'll perform in the real match: you might be the worst dps of the group without realizing it, and because you're trying to memorize movement, mechanics, rotations, cds, and so on. SSS only provides you with one information: "You have achieved the dps threshold for X boss", but it doesn't tell you "how much" you will do or how much you have done to it.
And in a game where all raid bosses are essentially dps checks, this is a very important detail to have, but I only speak as an retired raider.

The point is - before you complain about "people not accepting my advice" or "getting defensive" - consider the way that advice is being offered or stated.

I don't have issues accepting advices and I don't really get that defensive (unless angered). Infact someone already countered me saying how my BLM isn't that great due to the lack of SS, and I replied simply by saying "I agree, but I don't really feel the need to". However I see that you're only speaking about the worst of the people without realizing that there are people who will be able to teach things: I did that several times quite a while ago, and without being nasty or anything. But you just imply that we're all bad and terrible and that we're all going to slap them for their bad performance. Again, stop generalizing: there are people and people.

Regarding people who claim that if they're doing (as a random example) 1500 dps, and another is "only" doing 1000 that you were "carrying that person", answer me this: Could you have cleared that content, in the same amount of time, and with the same efficacy without the 1000 dps person being there? If no, then they were contributing, you were not carrying them, and you should promptly get over yourself.

I agree: as long as people do their contribution, I have no issues with their low dps (not that I ever had to begin with). I don't have to get over myself: we're a group attempting to do a dungeon/raid, all I care is finishing said dungeon/raid, and doing it at the best of our skills. Everything else, at least for me, is irrelevant, parser included, since we defeated the boss. However I still wish to know how I fared, and so I test myself. And I'm sure others do the same. And I'm sure others only want to anger and harass. Both scenarios can happen.

And lastly, if someone's in your group and says “Hey, I'm new, can anyone offer any helpful advice or tips for me?”, if all you're going to say is “Don't die”, or “don't step in the bad stuff, and don't die”… just shut up. You're not being helpful, nor are you trying to be. You're being an obnoxious douchebag. And if you are that person, and the new person makes a mistake, do not bitch them out or try to vote-kick them. They asked for tips/advice… you chose to be an ass.

If someone asks me advices, I tell them. If they don't ask me, I don't. I think this is a pretty straightforward discussion, but you're constantly making strawman discussion all through the post. I can assure you that I do not react that way and despite my "carelessness" I do care about the completion of the dungeon, and having everyone knowing what to do is more helpful than having people dying for not knowing tactics. Unfortunately not every group likes to wait and getting explained: I had a lot of mentor runs where I ended up in Ex primals but I was unable to explain due to some random puller. And it wasn't just one who did that.

But again, you just seem to be using various false accusations and generalizing every parser user as "bad people", while I can guarantee that not ALL of them are bad. I definitely don't consider myself bad, even though people have told me that I am, but as long as I don't cause issues (which I never did), and don't harass people (Which I don't), and use the parser for my own benefits (which I always do, unless asked), I simply do my own stuff. But THERE ARE people who harass just for the sake of harassing. And that's 100% fact.