Would you like an in-game parser?

[KarstenS]

Maybe they should stop designing game mechanics around arbitrary DPS requirements? Just a thought.

Tanks have to know their class very good or they die.

Healers have to know their class very good or all die.

Why should damage dealers be the one role, that don't have to know their class?

The onliest way to check out if a damage dealer has understood the class are: DPS checks. And these have to be on a similar skill level as tank and healer skill checks.

[Reynhart]

Tanks have to know their class very good or they die.

To the point where, to clear content, every tank had to withdraw their tank stance as much as possible, avoid any tank stats back when it didn't increase their DPS. So, basically, anything but tanking.

Healers have to know their class very good or all die.

So, from now on, you're a bad healer if you don't pop Cleric Stance the second no one needs healing, even if you didn't let anyone die or keep a bad status effect during the whole fight. So, again, a thing that as nothing to do with healing

Why should damage dealers be the one role, that don't have to know their class?

There is a difference between "not knowing your class" and being 10% below perfection, which in these days, means you're absolute garbage. Even if you're avoiding every mechanics so that you'll go easy on your healers. Black Mages are even encouraged to stay in AoE if avoiding means lowering your DPS by a tiny bit. So, if you do anything that is not DPSing, there you're bad.

The worst part, of course, is that this mentality has poisoined every party for every content, even though thoses 10% are actually meaningless for most content. And now that people think like that, there is no going back.

And these have to be on a similar skill level as tank and healer skill checks.

And, by the way, tanking checks are ridiculously low compared to DPS check.

[KarstenS]

There is a difference between "not knowing your class" and being 10% below perfection, which in these days, means you're absolute garbage.

Its not about the "10%". For Midas Savage you need around 70% of what is possible, maybe less. But there are so many people, which are far away from being at 70%. Without knowing the numbers, you will never know where you need to improve. Without knowing what exactly went wrong, you can't make any progress.

And, by the way, tanking checks are ridiculously low compared to DPS check.

Outside Savage: Yes.

Inside Savage: No.

Its not a good idea to talk about tank and heal checks, when you have never done content where it does matter. Yes, outside of Savage (and maybe Ex Primals in the first week after release) there is no content where tank and healer skills get checked. But in Savage you would be surprised, how much you have to do in these roles to sucessfully beat it at the end.

[Seraphix2407]

Its not about the "10%". For Midas Savage you need around 70% of what is possible, maybe less. But there are so many people, which are far away from being at 70%. Without knowing the numbers, you will never know where you need to improve. Without knowing what exactly went wrong, you can't make any progress.

Or those with ilvl 230 cant pass faust. Honestly even if you pass SSS, doesn't really mean anything when you have to deal with mechanics as well. Specially on classes like where you need to keep stacks up or movement like brd, mch and BLM have.

[Reynhart]

Its not about the "10%". For Midas Savage you need around 70% of what is possible, maybe less. But there are so many people, which are far away from being at 70%. Without knowing the numbers, you will never know where you need to improve. Without knowing what exactly went wrong, you can't make any progress.

Two things can go wrong. Either your rotation, or the mechanics. If it's the mechanics, it's pretty easy to see where you screwed. And if it's your rotation, you just need to train againt Stone, Sky and Sea until you clear it easy. And none of this requires actual numbers. And again, I trained without a parser and ended with actual good numbers when I've been parsed in content.

Outside Savage: Yes.

I've done A1S as a tank and as a DPS. The two checks are nowhere on par. In every content if look at, tank rotation is set in stone. There is no randomness. It's basically why tanks pack the most attack power they can, and can stance dance that much.

If a DPS knows they need 1,200 DPS to perform and are only capable of 800 at this time, then objectively they have to find ways to optimize themselves to reach that goal and it would be clear cut. Of course having these numbers is just only one part of the equation.

Ok, then, tell me what you would do for such a DPS if you end with it in your party ? Will you look at its rotation during the fight, and tell him how and when he can improve ? Would you kick him, even with proper explanation, because he can't meet your requirement ?

[Seraphix2407]

Two things can go wrong. Either your rotation, or the mechanics. If it's the mechanics, it's pretty easy to see where you screwed. And if it's your rotation, you just need to train againt Stone, Sky and Sea until you clear it easy. And none of this requires actual numbers. And again, I trained without a parser and ended with actual good numbers when I've been parsed in content

What? I'm being serious here. It's like what you said, if its the mechanics, you see what you need to fix, if its your rotation you simply can't go back to the stone, sky, sea and clear it till its easy. Doesn't work like that. Just because you beat the dummy strike doesn't mean you are on pair with mechanics and dps wise. It's like putting a blm on a dummy for seph extreme and they clear it easy then put them in the fight where you have alot of movement going on; shakers, colours, spread out etc. You can't excactly expect your dps to be the same which is obvious but the fact you need to work around your dps rotation around the mechanics is something that you need to do. Yes I did train my DRG rotation without parser too but did I see how good I did in primals or savage? Nope, when I found out, holy crap I was shit. And I talk about really bad. You can't really compare SSS to a fight with real mechanics. If it was that simple you would see mnks would be top dps in any fights according to your logic.

Ok, then, tell me what you would do for such a DPS if you end with it in your party ? Will you look at its rotation during the fight, and tell him how and when he can improve ? Would you kick him, even with proper explanation, because he can't meet your requirement ?

I know this wasn't for me, but I'll reply to you on this matter on my behalf. If I see some one using my class I would ask them when they do their rotation and when they use cds, do they hold them or use them right as they come off, because not always its a good time to use them. Example seph ex, b4b pops right as the hand fist pops and you wouldn't pop b4b as hes about to stomp you away, because you wouldn't get max benefit of b4b. I would ask what his rotations and see what is wrong, then ask when he does debuff and actually put dot up on full time. There is a lot of thing that comes to his class but what most can't handle is doing mechanics while doing skills which makes you lose uptime on the boss: You dont dot the boss for example before you can't hit it, like in seph ex you want to have both dots up before he smashes you away. You want to do piercing debuf before he does it as well so when you come back from the hand smash you have debuff and it increases your dmg when you get back to it and also the dots are still on. There are small things that matters in this fight. Line up your skills with the mechanics so you don't pop them wrong them etc. I would tell them in details and when and how. NOW, if this guy was playing on a class I have no clue about, I would send them to my friends who can and this has happened quite few times and goddamn, as mentioned. This guy increased his dps on a dummy from 900 to 1.4k. Then on primals it went from sorry 900 to 1.3k. Why? because he listened and took advice and tried to do the rotation and danced with the mechanics while doing good dps. A dummy is a dummy, most people can pull it off. Even if I did midas 4 savage as 220 drg with 220 spear, doesn't mean I could pull enough dmg on the actual fight. Mechanics, rng, if you get a certain mechanic and you can't hit it, example when you have to go away from the group when he jumps on someone, you have to move away. There is a lot of factors that comes to place. Now if he took my advice and improved and I clearly see its a improvement, good good, he stays and he gets better. But when you don't get better after 5-10 rounds and still do the same amount as before, you clearly didn't take the lesson proppely or even serious. Doing a fight as a dps and have high dps isnt all about clicking 1 2 3, it's matter when and how and why.

[Reynhart]

What? I'm being serious here. It's like what you said, if its the mechanics, you see what you need to fix, if its your rotation you simply can't go back to the stone, sky, sea and clear it till its easy.

It depends. If your rotation has a clear flaw, yes, you can. If it's your rotation, in a real situation like Ghislain described, then I'd ask the same question for you.
What would you do for such a DPS ?

As for your example for Sephi EX, I don't think it would really work either. SSS numbers are actually higher then real fights, since you don't have to deal with mechanics. But meeting those numbers are also not a joke. So, I'm pretty sure that a DPS who can beat SSS for Sephi EX, and that doesn't screw during mechanis will have no issue meeting the DPS requirement.

Yes I did train my DRG rotation without parser too but did I see how good I did in primals or savage? Nope, when I found out, holy crap I was shit. And I talk about really bad.

Believe me, the first time I did SSS as a DRG for A1S, I realized how flawed my rotation was. Then I looked at Dervy's guide, completely changed my cross-hotbars and practice the rotation time and time over. And when I get back to SSS, the difference was HUGE.
With no parser.

[Seraphix2407]

Dervy's guide

Oh yeah dervy, the drg that was in my final coil static and fc. This guy, since you mentioned him, he even explains how a drg will work in fights. But yes if its a clear flaw then yeah it can be fixed on a dummy like rotation vise, that I agree. I'm aware the numbers are higher on a dummy than actual fight, but that doesn't leave people doing 400 less than people with les gear. Mind this, I've seen 230 smns do less than mine 220 but I still won't tell them because if I do, I insult them apperently. But if I know the person in and out I will tell them and will teach them, that's how I do it. And I appreciate a person takes times to listen and improve than one not bothering at all, but I'm sure you and I agree on this one

Edit: I actually posted a reply to you on the question you asked the other person btw.

I also want to add, many people think they are doing good on a actual fight , simply because they beat SSS, until they see the # they start to wonder what went wrong. I'm not saying all but most have and I'm not gonna lie, so far I've met a lot of people who gotten a lot better and I love it.

[vp_cmc]

Ok, then, tell me what you would do for such a DPS if you end with it in your party ? Will you look at its rotation during the fight, and tell him how and when he can improve ? Would you kick him, even with proper explanation, because he can't meet your requirement ?

What will you do with that dps, who can't kill his steam regulator in a8s p1 and keeps wiping the raid, because he can't meet his (personal!) dps check?

[Reynhart]

What will you do with that dps, who can't kill his steam regulator in a8s p1 and keeps wiping the raid, because he can't meet his (personal!) dps check?

You mean the target that doesn't move during a phase where there are pretty much no mechanic to deal with ? Like a training dummy ?

If someone is under performing and cannot contribute to a group in a meaningful way, then yes they will either need to improve or try again with a different group another time. This metric of "meaningful" just happens to be significantly higher for raids then it is for casual play like EXDR.
So, how about you? Would you know what to do if someone was like that in your party?

Until now, I've managed to broadly look at what they did to see glaring flaws, like not hitting positionnals, or using too few cooldowns (Or wanting so much to hit positionnals that hitting Ravana's shield...). I admit that I don't have a really huge experience with Alexander Savage, but it worked well during coil. Because, as I said, if your DPS is really lacking then the flaw is easy to see and doesn't require a parser. And without such a glaring flaw, it's not that hard to meet the DPS that coil required, while still using far more interesting mechanics than Gordias.