Would you like an in-game parser?

[Kazumac]

People say things regardless. I'd rather not have that discussion be all over every group i am participating in. I just don't care for the drama.

And I'd rather remove asshats from my group than play with an uninformed player base ;-)

But to each their own I guess. I can mange jerks and trolls with in game tools. I can't say the same for measuring dps performance.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

Namely to violate the terms of service via third party programs that only a PC can run?

I'd really appreciate if people could finally stop using the PS3/PS4 argument. PCs are simply more capable than consoles due to the ability to freely run third party programs. As such, PC players will always be able to do more than console players, they will always have more abilities. Using this advantage however is prohibited by the terms of service and the only reason people aren't being banned for parsing right now is because SE is nice and lenient. If you actually want equality, ask SE to stop being nice, because that's what the inequality stems from. And if you don't, please just stop using the argument.

Just because they can never be completely equal doesn't mean you don't try to bring them closer. Parsers are the main one people want and are the most useful. The other 3rd party stuff PC can use, while nice, is more preferential. It absolutely is still a valid argument.

Regardless though, my post was more than that and the rest still stands.

[Seraphix2407]

People say things regardless. I'd rather not have that discussion be all over every group i am participating in. I just don't care for the drama, or being ruthless to be the norm.

I agree and it looks like you understand my point Much as I understand yours

[Zojha]

The other 3rd party stuff PC can use, while nice, is more preferential.

Forgive me when I laugh. Do you even know what kinds of things you can do with the data from a parser? Simple DPS meter is just a tiny start, you can build entire boss mods with that (deadly boss mods ring any WoW bells?). How about a nice program that calculates and displays enemy LB availability and the most important cooldowns in PvP? Puuurely preferential. And don't forget the class helper that tells you exactly when to use which CD based on experiences and theorycrafting via a nifty little message. Just to name a few things SE would likely tolerate.

How about bots that do things automatically for you, like using an interrupt on a specific spell or going full on auto-pilot grinding? Still preferential? I can tell you those are immensely useful! And those sweet, sweet teleport hacks. And just as forbidden as a parser.

See where I'm getting at? Each of these programs provides a substantial advantage. They are all equally against the rules. And as long as SE lets this violation slide, there is inequality. Once SE enforces the rules, including parsers, there is equality. So again, if you want equality, ask SE to enforce the rules. Not incorporate single programs in a pool of dozens into the game. That is pointless without enforcement of the rules. And once rules are being enforced, there is no inequality anymore in the first place, so the reason falls flat. That's why it's an invalid argument.

And I know your post contained more. I just don't really care because I had my fair share of these kinds of debates. I just want people to repeat 'valid' arguments over and over again back and forth for 40+ pages with nothing to show for it.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

Forgive me when I laugh. Do you even know what kinds of things you can do with the data from a parser?

Yes. I'm fully aware of what a parser can and cannot do. All of those things you mentioned though don't involve information that you can't reasonably get otherwise, they just rearrange it or make it more prevalent. I can learn what a boss does, what the best CDs are to use at a given point in time, which CDs are available, which procs are up, etc. without the use of 3rd party tool. Those provide an edge, yes, but they just mean you have to spend less time working on your play.

A DPS meter, however, I cannot reasonably go into my battle log after every single pull and check what my DPS was. That's ridiculous, and that easily puts it far ahead of the other uses ACT provides. There's a reason we're talking about a DPS meter mainly here and not those other things.

So yes, I'd classify those things as preferential because all of the information it provides is readily available for me without the tool to know just as well as someone with the tool. What I can't do reasonably though is know my DPS, which makes it non preferential and more essential to high level play.

Again, just because there's always going to be inequality doesn't mean you don't try to close the gap. You seem to ignore that point.

Thanks for the condescending response though. You seem to be swell.

[Preypacer]

Except that is definitively and verifiably not true. You're missing the part where parsers have existed for those 3 years and every (EVERY!!!) top group has used them. I'd argue every group that's cleared (minus maybe a couple outliers) before nerfs have had at least one person parsing. This is a large crux of your argument that's flat false.

It's not false. People choose to use parsers. They don't have to use them. It's a choice, not a requirement.

Saying "EVERY!!!" top group has used them is just argumentum ad populum.

It also implies so-called "top players" aren't good enough to defeat encounters without add-ons/3rd party tools to help them. You're implying they need a crutch to do so. You're implying that relying on their own skill, knowledge of their given role/job, ability to coordinate and communicate, and learn the mechanics through trial-and-error, isn't enough; they still fall flat. You're saying every (EVERY!!!) top group isn't quite as good as they seem to think, since - according to you - every (EVERY!!!) one of them requires add-ons to clear it.

That's effectively what you're saying.

Not very flattering! I suspect some in the end-game community would take exception to your broad-stroke characterization of them.

The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, and that is gauge their performance as a DPS. People on PC who want to parse already are, so in reality, only PS3/PS4 players now receiving a parser would see any real change from this.

You mean what the PC players have had the ability to do unofficially, on the down-low. You're talking like parsers have already been officially sanctioned by SE and are considered legit, but just haven't made it to consoles, yet. You're talking like number parsers are something Yoshi-P has officially spoken out in favor of on an official level. He, quite clearly, hasn't. Again, you seem to be arguing from this position of "Well, people are already using them, therefor they're necessary, and everyone should have access to them!", while ignoring all of the facts that clearly run counter to that. Your argument is pure confirmation bias. Unfortunately for you, ignoring readily and easily verifiable facts, however inconvenient they are to your narrative, doesn't make them go away.

Now for the rest of your argument, it seems to me mostly more fear of abuse. As said more than once, abusive players are abusive players. They will find a way to abuse you with or without a parser. Why is parser abuse worse than non parser abuse? So what if it's another tool to use? They already have plenty of tools! Not to mention a lot of those abusers are the ones actually doing poorly. So having a parser will in many situations remove a tool for them to abuse you with.

I love this attitude. It boils down to: "Jerks will be jerks regardless, so what's the difference if we give them one more way to do so, eh?"

Of course, in your case, "... as long as I get what I want!" is appended to the end of that statement.

I mean, after all, as long as you get what you want (an official parser), then hey, you'll just accept it as a necessary side-effect, right? Let others deal with it. You, and/or others in your camp will be too busy obsessing over others' parser numbers to see who the "bads" are to care!

It's also plainly hypocritical. You people are crying foul about not having something the game has never officially supported, and that you do not need to clear content (unless, again, you're not actually as good as you want to think), and consider it some great injustice. Yet you turn around and are basically "pfft.. whatever. Others will work it out" about the fact that the inclusion of said thing would empower people to become even bigger ass-hats than they already are to people who are just trying to enjoy playing the damn game.

Your priorities are backwards.

Every single person paying to play this game has a fair expectation that they should be able to play the game as they like, at their own pace, and enjoy the experience within the confines of what the game offers and supports. Conversely, you, and others in your boat, have no legitimate expectation that the experience must include an official parser. In other words: Your want for an official parser, something you have absolutely no reasonable expectation of in FFXIV (it's never been promised to you), is not more important than others' desire to play the game and experience it without unwanted harassment from people who think it's their place to impose their playstyle/preferences on everyone else, "because numbers".

Per Yoshi-P - in his words, and actions (SSS) - it's not going to be officially part of the game any time soon. He's mentioned that when player add-ons become a thing, that players will likely create them. And you better believe he'll be keeping an eye on how that data is used/misused. His decision is not made lightly. He's explained his position on this subject. He's expressed his fears, which stem from the fact that when players have access to other people's combat data, it tends to get abused - a lot. That's the reality of the situation. He knows it. I know it. And you know it - though you readily dismiss it. Coming here and talking about "well PC players have already been using them, so console players should have access to them too" only demonstrates that you are completely and utterly indifferent to the reality of the situation. Again, you want what you want, and that's all that matters to you. "Everyone else can just deal with it".

And all because some people are - again, literally - obsessed with numbers... especially others'.

You can spin, argue, dismiss and try to rationalize it all you like. There's over a decade of evidence, across myriad MMOs, where many people will take parser data and use it to bludgeon other players, for no other reason than "because they can", and feel they have the right to. Yoshi-P - rightfully so - does not want that crap in this game, any more than it already is.

And again, if you don't like what I say about that group of people... don't get mad at me. I don't make people act the way they do. I'm just pointing it out. If you want official parsers to be seen with a more positive attitude and more accepted... turn your anger on the assholes in your own sub-community who abuse them, and ruin it for everyone else. If you want to see a difference in attitudes towards official parsers, don't go after the people voting against them. They have over a decade's worth of reasons to. Go after the people in your pro-parser group giving them a bad name in the first place.

[Adventica6]

They don't want to add one for fear of discrimination, person A is bad, person B (me) is insane, kick person A. Person A feels bad and unsubs, SE doesn't want that. You can download a parser if you want for yourself but don't try and belittle others with it in a group or you will find yourself back in town real fast.

[Seraphix2407]

It's not false. People choose to use parsers. They don't have to use them. It's a choice, not a requirement.
I love this attitude. It boils down to: "Jerks will be jerks regardless, so what's the difference if we give them one more way to do so, eh?"

So you are saying top players are bad because they can't beat content without parser?
You do know it's just not numbers? You know what numbers means right? Negative or positive. If you aren't doing high enough then you need to improve and that's excactly how parser do for you, they will let you IMPROVE, YES IMPROVE!!!!!! as a player. If you don't want to improve, stay away from party finders or even try to do a extreme primal or raids.

And about jerks will be jerks. Just gonna say it, but it seems like many people want to ignore people who are bad gras and what's that? Those who aren't willing to learn or get better, even take advice from people. Many time's I got told to fuck off because I try to help but they say they don't need it

I will quote you on this:''Jerks will be jerks regardless, so what's the difference if we give them one more way to do so, eh?"
Works the same way
So what about those who don't wanna take advice, you never seem to like to respond to my post to you. So I want YOU, to tell people in this thread how people can improve and what if they aren't willing to improve whats your suggest then? Let them stay jerks? Adding no parser will make them stay as jerks too you know?

So in short: If people aren't willing to listen to tips or improve or anything like that, put a parser in. If they are then I don't care if there is no parser in game. But as I see many won't then yes I stick to my statements, put on in the game .

[Singularity]

Every single person paying to play this game has a fair expectation that they should be able to play the game as they like, at their own pace, and enjoy the experience within the confines of what the game offers and supports. Conversely, you, and others in your boat, have no legitimate expectation that the experience must include an official parser. In other words: Your want for an official parser, something you have absolutely no reasonable expectation of in FFXIV (it's never been promised to you), is not more important than others' desire to play the game and experience it without unwanted harassment from people who think it's their place to impose their playstyle/preferences on everyone else, "because numbers".

Neither is your want for there not to be an official parser.

The player that drags down the party, that expects the others to do all the work for them so they can AFK/auto-attack/ice-mage their way through content at the rest of the party's expense, saying "because that's fun for me" is exactly as entitled as the jerk that shouts down others for doing anything less than optimal DPS. That player is also "imposing their playstyle/preferences on everyone else"

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-WXYg-S05U

tl;dr: Officially, he's not allowed to say parsers are okay. He can only caution players to be discreet and responsible with them. Essentially, don't try to use your parsing numbers to harass other players. If someone reports you AND you have a parser running, you're likely going to see a ban or suspension.

I'm a little surprised this topic isn't being discussed further.

Yoshi-P's stance on parsers. He knows there's desire for it, he (rightly) fears abuse and he's trying to find a solution (that last information from a more recent interview question about addons).

As I've said, I support a self-only parser. It fills the needs of those that would use it for self-improvement and I don't see any way in which it could be abused.

[Seraphix2407]

Neither is your want for there not to be an official parser.

The player that drags down the party, that expects the others to do all the work for them so they can AFK/auto-attack/ice-mage their way through content at the rest of the party's expense, saying "because that's fun for me" is exactly as entitled as the jerk that shouts down others for doing anything less than optimal DPS. That player is also "imposing their playstyle/preferences on everyone else

Thank you. This is excactly why. But many people ignore it and I have yet to see a respons how to fix that. Most are on about those who are dps jerks than those who afk or ice-mage as you said. Thank you.