Would you like an in-game parser?

[Rawrz]

Seems to me the playerbase has done just fine without a Parser all this time. After all, every new dungeon, quest, trial, etc introduced - whether normal, hard, or savage, has been cleared, has it not?

Seems to me people are doing just fine without parsers to tell them what they already know - that they're doing sufficient output, and dancing to the mechanics sufficiently to defeat the content. But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

Stopped reading after this. One requirement of a raid group is someone who parses, when you put that static together. Someone is parsing. Give me a world first or a world tenth that didn't use one. Hint: you won't find one.

[Preypacer]

Stopped reading after this. One requirement of a raid group is someone who parses, when you put that static together. Someone is parsing. Give me a world first or a world tenth that didn't use one. Hint: you won't find one.

So, your argument is... "parsers are necessary because people use them"?

You seem to have missed the point of my post (or that part of it at least). Whether or not they're used isn't the question. Obviously they are.

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Some people are just obsessed with reducing everything down to numbers - "min/max" this, "optimal" that - and mistake something they want as something the game needs.

Another question is, would parsers give ammunition to those already prone to being asshats, to become even more so? Historically, in every other MMO they've been in, yes, it will. Those people already exist in this game. They even post in these forums - at least a few in this very thread.

A very real concern with many, is that those people would not keep such "standards of performance" to themselves. They would impose them on everyone else. And not just in end-game raid content. No no, in DF as well. How do I know? Because they've already been doing it - insisting that if you're in "their party", haven't studied videos on the content, and are unable to perform up to their standards, that you're wasting "their" time, and holding "them" back. Some have requested ways to lock out people they deem "unworthy" of being in "their groups" - yes, even in DF. Just spend an hour or three going back over the numerous threads and discussions archived on these forums for the last 2+ years. You'll see plenty of such attitudes on display.

What do you think those people would do if actual numbers became available to them? Do you think they'd suddenly become conciliatory and helpful? Do you think they'd wield that information respectfully and reasonably? Hell freaking no they wouldn't. They'd become even worse. Again, history - across myriad other MMOs - has proven this out, and the "seeds" are already planted in this game's community.

Give those people access to that data, and they would immediately weaponize it against other players, berating, insulting, humiliating, purely to groom their own sense of superiority, and boost their own ego. Yoshi-P is clearly aware of this kind of behavior in other MMOs, and realizes bringing that capability to FFXIV in an official manner would inevitably produce the same results. He doesn't want that crap infecting XIV's community any more than it already has. This is why he is against implementing parsers officially, and made the compromise of the SSS - which, yes, does provide sufficient feedback of whether a player's prepared to take on given content, in a purely binary, pass-or-fail kind of way.

And if you don't like the way I've depicted a portion of this game's community, hey... don't get angry at me. I don't make people behave the way they do. Ask them why they behave that way in the first place.

[Seraphix2407]

Give those people access to that data, and they would immediately weaponize it against other players, berating, insulting, humiliating, purely to groom their own sense of superiority, and boost their own ego. Yoshi-P is clearly aware of this kind of behavior in other MMOs, and realizes bringing that capability to FFXIV in an official manner would inevitably produce the same results. He doesn't want that crap infecting XIV's community any more than it already has. This is why he is against implementing parsers officially, and made the compromise of the SSS - which, yes, does provide sufficient feedback of whether a player's prepared to take on given content, in a purely binary, pass-or-fail kind of way

Then you have those who won't take advice, listen to people when mechanic comes, those who tells people to get a life just because they wanna help, say it's just a game, it's my game my sub.
Ever heard of respect?
You know what respect is right? It goes both ways. If YOU as DPS is nerfing down a whole group, simply because you can't forfill your job, that one is on YOU!
No really it's on you. Don't expect people to play bit better, just so you can get your clear, it doesn't work like that. This post make it sound like healers and tank can play their roles half ass and you will be fine with it, which I highly doubt you would. I won't lie but this post made me really annoyed, because you make it sound like we should ignore problems instead of fixing it. There will be assholes with or without official parser. Just a reminder, there are people who have parser you and I'm well aware some didn't even say they did and some might have.

Read this line again and I would like you to respond to my old post to you as well.
Respect goes both ways, don't think you are the one to get only respect because you simply won't do your job. This is my respons to ''why'' an official parser might not be released as you stated, people will become more a-holes. But nah, seriously I find more players who refuses to listen more toxic than a player who calls out people numbers.

No. Just no. This isn't just about numbers. You put a guy in a fight where BLM's for example or BRD/MCH has to move alot, they wouldn't need to move for jack shit on SSS. Put them in a fight like sephirot, thordan, midas savage etc, you will see it will ring another tone.
Example, a mnk can do insane dps on a stupid dummy, once they in a fight it will be different, with mechanics. Numbers only? What about your dps is low as 900 in a fight, then you suddenly want to use a parser or anyone else, they see it and they will probably think: Damn, this dps is low. How do I improve it? Well first, did he beat the dummy? Yes, did he do the mechanics on it? No. So this is where the parser is going to be the real deal, you look at it, find out what you doing wrong, fix it and voila you have increased the dps. There are fights you wanna hold your cds or even use them right away. It's all different from fight to fight. So numbers only? Nope..

Edit. Before anyone else pulls of this is just a game card. Yes, I know it's just a game. However I'm paying for it, so to show off respect to players, forfill your role as a person, give, show respect, and you will get it back. The only way to do so, is actually improve yourself as a person both how you play and how you are. This goes off to anyone, a-holes or simply those who refuse to get better. Too many times many wont take advice and that's a whole reason why I stopped helping strangers, unless I know they are more than wiling to.

[/I]And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Yes and no. There are endless of ways how that could been done. Echo, nerfs and simply 7 people pulling enough weight for 1 person to do less and be acceptable. Sorry that's what most of us trying to avoid, that 1 dps is slacking so it's just ''fine'' to ignore it.
Many times I've had people from different servers making alt on my server to respond to a video I uploaded 3 weeks ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5NupyOO0eU 7PLDS and 1 SCH beating seph extreme. Now why did they do that? Because their group had no deaths but got enrage on sephe xtreme with a normal party. What's your defence on that?

[Miles_Maelstrom]

. . .

Interesting. I've seen a lot from you this thread. You expressed a loss of desire to offer help to under performers [cause you believe most won't listen], wish for a tool to be able to pin point under performers, and you believe SSS is inefficient because it lacks the boss mechanics.

Let me ask you this then. Based on what I've seen you talk about you believe that when someone is in a group they need to preform at a certain level of skill or get out. You want them to get better, but by your own admission things like SSS and dummies won't help them. Only being in the encounter to practice with a parser will let them become better, but you don't want them in there holding you back. So how again do you expect people to improve?

[Seraphix2407]

Interesting. I've seen a lot from you this thread. You expressed a loss of desire to offer help to under performers [cause you believe most won't listen], wish for a tool to be able to pin point under performers, and you believe SSS is inefficient because it lacks the boss mechanics.

Let me ask you this then. Based on what I've seen you talk about you believe that when someone is in a group they need to preform at a certain level of skill or get out. You want them to get better, but by your own admission things like SSS and dummies won't help them. Only being in the encounter to practice with a parser will let them become better, but you don't want them in there holding you back. So how again do you expect people to improve?

Thanks for your respons and yes I have indeed posted alot in here. So to reply to your question:
Yes to beat a certain content, let it be savage or primal.

I expect a certain level when you want to be the content, you don't need to be super top to beat it, but a certain level is far than enough to beat it.
As I've stated before in this thread, there are groups I've been for hours like in seph extreme or midas 1 savage recently. I have beat those content ages ago and I don't mind, as you said they need to improve and get better, so that's why I'm staying. However, those guys did listen, but as you mentioned and said, yes I have met a lot of players who simply refuses to listen or improve, because they keep die or not improve at all when it comes to DPS. Do I call them out? Nope, but I do tell them they have to improve or we have to replace. To be honest, I've met few of those and they know they are a screw up for the group and are willing to leave on their own, but I can sadly not say that about the players I usually meet.

There is a difference improving each run than improving after 2 hours while everyone is ahead and not willing to take advice in terms of mechanics or dps.
A way person can improve is to also admit their own mistakes and not ignore them. Another way to improve is also admit they are not doing as expected (dps wise)
How can you improve those? Take advice, practice, ASK for advice. I still stand on my opinion on SSS. Yes it gives you somewhat a pinpoint how your DPS is if you do beat it, but that doesn't mean you can pull it off in the actual fight. Many time's I've seen people who do SSS slower than another person but yet that person out dps the one who beat the dummy faster, this is a good example how it really is.

As mentioned many times. Many are indeed a-holes with their parsers, and I agree. But then you have those who refuses to get better or take advice, failing soo many times or not increasing dps each time the run the content. This is my whole point. Many in here are againts parsers because of a-holes. I'm for parser because (honestly) they need to see why they aren't involved in groups and that tool alone will help you on a long run. It can give you info where you can improve and where you shouldn't do weird stuff like popping b4b right before the boss does LB for example.

Problem is, to make it short. Many refuses to get better. Many takes offense when they are even told in a nice way to improve. It's true, you have to watch out for peoples feelings and then just socialy accept they are bad, so me or you or anyone else wont hurt their feelings. To improve you also have to deal how bad you been doing, simple as that. If you can't deal with it, then you need to understand there are people who aren't willing to help you, because you can't take criticism. I know being an asshole about isn't nice so I tell most people be nice about it and let them know.

However there is a HUGE difference between ''Your dps sucks ass, gtfo'' and ''You have a bit low dps, mind if I can show you how to improve''?
Then again you have to watch out for peoples feelings, so even being nice might hurt their feelings sadly. Parser would let them see how bad or good they are without being told. Even if you aren't one of those who get offended or tells you to fuck off, it's still a nice addition for those who want to even get better .

And to add, many in here or people in general who are againt's parser arent interested in knowing what they do, which is a huge problem as well, knowing they ignore the problem more than trying to fix it. That's why I said those post makes me wanna not help anymore, because that's how they want it to be. I'm not saying all, but a few atleast from reading their post.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

snip.

This is way better put than my apparently "rude" posts earlier. Thanks for this, it's exactly how I feel and you expressed far better than I did.

[Xlantaa]

- Things that are true -

The best post I've read about this. Exactly what I'm thinking but I couldn't never explain myself.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Except that is definitively and verifiably not true. You're missing the part where parsers have existed for those 3 years and every (EVERY!!!) top group has used them. I'd argue every group that's cleared (minus maybe a couple outliers) before nerfs have had at least one person parsing. This is a large crux of your argument that's flat false.


The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, and that is gauge their performance as a DPS. People on PC who want to parse already are, so in reality, only PS3/PS4 players now receiving a parser would see any real change from this.

Now for the rest of your argument, it seems to me mostly more fear of abuse. As said more than once, abusive players are abusive players. They will find a way to abuse you with or without a parser. Why is parser abuse worse than non parser abuse? So what if it's another tool to use? They already have plenty of tools! Not to mention a lot of those abusers are the ones actually doing poorly. So having a parser will in many situations remove a tool for them to abuse you with.

The thing is, abuse will always be abuse. You can and should report it. GMs have been very good from what I've seen at dealing with actual abuse. Note: actual. Someone telling you your DPS is low is not abuse. It's simply stating a fact that probably hindered or blocked the group from completing the content.

I agree with what someone else said before. There will probably be an influx of abuse at the start, but that'll subside as GMs cut those people abusing it out. Although, to be honest, even an influx of abuse I don't think will be much. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've seen abusive players only 5 times in the time I've been playing, which was only a month or two after PS3 release. Maybe I'm lucky, but I feel if someone is constantly seeing heavy abuse, it's a sign that there's something you could work on. This doesn't absolve the abusers. They are still to blame, as acting that way isn't acceptable, but you can't control them. You can control you though.

[Zojha]

The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, [...]

Namely to violate the terms of service via third party programs that only a PC can run?

I'd really appreciate if people could finally stop using the PS3/PS4 argument. PCs are simply more capable than consoles due to the ability to freely run third party programs. As such, PC players will always be able to do more than console players, they will always have more abilities. Using this advantage however is prohibited by the terms of service and the only reason people aren't being banned for parsing right now is because SE is nice and lenient. If you actually want equality, ask SE to stop being nice, because that's what the inequality stems from. And if you don't, please just stop using the argument.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

Namely to violate the terms of service via third party programs that only a PC can run?

I'd really appreciate if people could finally stop using the PS3/PS4 argument. PCs are simply more capable than consoles due to the ability to freely run third party programs. As such, PC players will always be able to do more than console players, they will always have more abilities. Using this advantage however is prohibited by the terms of service and the only reason people aren't being banned for parsing right now is because SE is nice and lenient. If you actually want equality, ask SE to stop being nice, because that's what the inequality stems from. And if you don't, please just stop using the argument.

Just because they can never be completely equal doesn't mean you don't try to bring them closer. Parsers are the main one people want and are the most useful. The other 3rd party stuff PC can use, while nice, is more preferential. It absolutely is still a valid argument.

Regardless though, my post was more than that and the rest still stands.