Would you like an in-game parser?

[Remus]

People keep saying people bring up numbers in DF (dungeons) and for the time I have been playing since beta I have rarely seen this happen maybe it's because the people I get generally try ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I won't say it doesn't happen but people act like it's some common occurrence. The only time I would say people bring it up often is when they die to enrage or not meeting a DPS check in extreme primals or raids which is fair because the blame will be on the DPS if your not progressing on the fight due to DPS. It seems people are forgetting they are playing a MMO with other people around them.

The person who may not be performing very well and potentially causing wipes due to not doing enough damage might be having fun but they are not considering how the other people within the duty feel at all. Someone mentions being happy after clearing it after numerous tries but whats says the other people are happy as well? The amount of people I see chat about how horrible something went even though they cleared it but they would have preferred not having numerous silly wipes. When I enter DF content I try my hardest because I don't want silly wipes happening such as not meeting DPS checks and I want people to have a somewhat smooth experience.

There are some users who would love to know their DPS mainly on PS4 and based on this thread people would like it. Yes, I know forums are not the majority but I went out of my way to ask some casual friends of mine in a LS and some other places if they wanted a parser and majority said yes they wouldn't mind it. Do you know why they said they wouldn't mind? Because they have nothing to hide with their DPS they know they play at a level which is acceptable to most people and we are not talking "raid level" DPS.

I said it earlier in this Topic. If you are getting harassed or being told your DPS is too low instead of having a fit just improve a little its not that hard but people who are against parser make it seem like it's so much work but its not you just read up on a rotation and what you do after the Opener simple. Learning your job doesn't make you some elite or hardcore it just shows that you understand your job to a level that most people would like.

Just to help those of you out why not head over to the DPS section of the Forum and see how much it provides. It will take you a long way, some of those threads have basic and advanced rotations people can use where you still doing ok DPS with Basic.

DPS Forums

There was not the time to closely watch what he exactly did. If I would do, I would suck up my own rotation and mechanics.

Its not realistic to have an close overview of the entire party to see who is playing bad. As I said before, I have seen some of these guys that claim "I can see who's bad. I do not need numbers for that." in duties and all of them dealt really low damage their own. They should better try out a parser to get their eyes opened, how wrong they are with their opinion.

There is still an unanswered question: How shall they be able to see who is doing wrong, when they are not able to perform good their own?

If you know almost every classes skills its quite easy to have a close overview of the entire party I do it all the time and I can easily determine who is doing low DPS there has been plenty of instances where I forgot to open a "certain" software and my guess is generally always correct when I do open it after a few wipes but what you said is understandable. Some people do act that way but I wouldn't say that's the majority but I think a parser would help because if they see their DPS isn't that great chances are they will try to improve it.

I will say though I have noticed something with the FFXIV community and SE has noticed it as well we are very competitive. They are adding leaderboards to content like Feast and soon to be Deep Dungeon. This is just a theory but would perhaps parsers have the same effect because people would want to be the "best" and this in turn would increase DPS in DF? Then you can say the issue would be people wouldn't focus on mechanics but I don't think that would be the case because people would still want to clear content.

[Archaell]

I will say though I have noticed something with the FFXIV community and SE has noticed it as well we are very competitive. They are adding leaderboards to content like Feast and soon to be Deep Dungeon. This is just a theory but would perhaps parsers have the same effect because people would want to be the "best" and this in turn would increase DPS in DF? Then you can say the issue would be people wouldn't focus on mechanics but I don't think that would be the case because people would still want to clear content.

Imo the bigger issue than the mechanics is the job disparity. Certain jobs can do more dps than the other jobs - they may get some additional utility instead but that is not important.

If people see that class x is doing more dps than class y then they are bound to complain. I wonder how is SE going to handle that? Because I don't think saying "but you get this awesome buff/debuff" is going to calm the mob down.

[Reiryuu]

The person who may not be performing very well and potentially causing wipes due to not doing enough damage might be having fun but they are not considering how the other people within the duty feel at all. Someone mentions being happy after clearing it after numerous tries but whats says the other people are happy as well? The amount of people I see chat about how horrible something went even though they cleared it but they would have preferred not having numerous silly wipes. When I enter DF content I try my hardest because I don't want silly wipes happening such as not meeting DPS checks and I want people to have a somewhat smooth experience.

Let me nip something in the bud right here. When you do this, are you having fun? Do you consider what you are doing "effort" or "work"? People have very different definitions of these terms. Me? I've been playing MMOs for years-- since the original Everquest. I don't sit around and do nothing in a fight. I don't find that "fun" so I am always doing something whether it be DPSing or healing thus what I do all the time doesn't really seem like "effort" on my part either. On days when I am feeling particularly good, I may walk a dangerously low mana level so much that the bards I get in the group panic and turn on Mage's Ballad even though I'm used to starting boss fights and lasting through them while DPSing and healing with less than 15% of my mana pool. On days when I'm sick or feeling tired after a long day, I may not go quite so low and I may even do the occasional stupid mistake like forgetting to Esuna the tank when he gets hit with the hammer in the froggie boss.

Is that one mistake going to wipe the group? Hell no. Have I been called out on the one time it happened? Yup. We laughed it off as the tank happened to be a DRK and he was actually glad he got a chance to replenish his MP. Would some people rage at this one mistake? I'm sure there are a few who would. People aren't perfect. This is a video game. It's not real life and people don't need to get so wound up about little details. I don't like taking things super seriously in video games. That's what real life is for. This doesn't mean I'm spamming blizzard 1 on my black mage and it doesn't mean I'm sitting around twiddling my thumbs on full mana on my whm.

I said it earlier in this Topic. If you are getting harassed or being told your DPS is too low instead of having a fit just improve a little its not that hard but people who are against parser make it seem like it's so much work but its not you just read up on a rotation and what you do after the Opener simple. Learning your job doesn't make you some elite or hardcore it just shows that you understand your job to a level that most people would like.

I don't want a public parser because I don't want to be a slave to numbers. I'm not a competitive person and I really don't care about whether I'm 100 dps above or below the next white mage. I don't want people shoving numbers in my face like they're supposed to be some delicious tidbit. Hell, even if they were delicious I don't want them crammed down my throat. With open parsers, people will talk about numbers. It's only natural to talk about something right in front of your face. It's like the weather. But that would make me feel uncomfortable... like someone talking to me about politics or religion (two topics I hate discussing in real life).

And I'm sorry, but I really don't care enough about spending minutes or however long it takes looking up some "perfect" set up to get you through your dungeon 30 seconds faster. Proparsers keep saying "Oh! What about my enjoyment! It's not fun to fail dps checks!" and I'll agree with you there for the most part, but what about "Hey, it's not fun for me to have to spend several minutes of my time to increase some number I don't even care about some arbitrary amount to make you happy when I'm, in all likelihood, not going to see you again, so please, stop just assuming that we're all people who think spamming Impulse Drive in Shiva's rear end on DRG with Internal Release up is our definition of "fun."

Again, do I care if you use a parser to rate and improve yourself? No, have at it. Do I care if people on PS4 were able to download something to parse themselves only? No. By all means. Just don't get me involved unless I ask you. But when people come on the forums and say things like:

When you just want entertainment without any effort, playing a game is not the right thing for you. You should sit back and watch only, like in the quiz show example above.

I have to wonder if they're taking things a little too seriously. I mean really? Any game? I consider my play style "fun" and fairly "effortless" therefore I can't even play Minecraft or Monopoly? Really?

[WeekendSoja]

Snip

Man, I was trying to get a reply to give you an atta-boy before your post started getting replies but not quick enough lol. I do agree with you though. It doesn't take much to be proficient at your job. just a few buttons presses here and there...at some point its like your a pianist playing your job's song you've committed to muscle memory.

Imo the bigger issue than the mechanics is the job disparity. Certain jobs can do more dps than the other jobs - they may get some additional utility instead but that is not important.

If people see that class x is doing more dps than class y then they are bound to complain. I wonder how is SE going to handle that? Because I don't think saying "but you get this awesome buff/debuff" is going to calm the mob down.

With the use of parser's, the gaming community has a general understanding of where you should be as that job...in most current end-game content, people parsing don't even look at the individual numbers until they ascertain that the "total raid DPS" (A function found on all current available parsers) is below the threshold to pass the boss enrage. Though it is a sad fact that people who make these pre-mades can be quick to the "gun" lol when it comes to dismissing weak members...its easier to leave the instance, kick that member, blacklist, and recruit a new DPS than it is to talk to him about it, potentially get reported for harassment, and than banned...someone mentioned accountability earlier, I was also one, but I speak of accountability for both sides, how is the person receiving the advice going to interpret it? Can that person ensure the safety of the parsing party and not end up reporting him if things go south due to the conversation? If you can't be held accountable for your DPS, why should the parser be held accountable for discussing potential options to improve that person only to be labeled a harasser and cheat, and risk the chance of losing all their hard work up to that point. After considering that, its just easier to kick that person from your pre-made after exiting the instance...self-preservation goes both ways in this circumstance.

When you do this, are you having fun? Do you consider what you are doing "effort" or "work"? People have very different definitions of these terms.

This is true, to an extent, I would call this "game" more of a hobby of mine. I come home and I do my family stuff, log on, and play for an hour or two. Now here's where things change for me. How does each person handle their hobby, I was raised to excel at whatever I try, life, hobby, sports, what have you. So I am very comfortable when someone gauges my performance against others. In this case I take my extra curricular activities very seriously...and its fun to me. I can't have everyone agree with me, that's just a fact of life, but forum posts like these are meant for discussion...so far its rarely been a discussion of how it can be implemented, more so the implications of implementing this tool globally.

I've mentioned this before in other posts but it was passed over like a bag of sand on the beach lol but SE should consider dedicating a small data center (when they eventually merge low population servers together with other low population servers) to parser enabled capability and offering a one-time free server transfer to these servers for everyone currently subscribed. This would make the decision more player sided and no one can gripe if they made the wrong choice...just buy a transfer ticket or create an alt elsewhere. (I used the reference data center that way DF and and raid finder capabilities are unhindered by the fact that people have official parser's)

Though, this is just a gut feeling, but I am inclined to say that the parsing community greatly outnumbers the anti-parse community...probably me just thinking too much into it but it may just be the human need of excelling and the validation...could just be me...but I have more often than not heard people become super excited at finally hearing their numbers (more so the console populace on this observation)

[Kaurie]

Let me tell you a story, even though you are clearly busy trying to improve the way others express their points... it's not gonna work so you can stop. ^^
Few months ago I decided to try out the dps classes. This was really surprising in itself because originally I did not plan to play something that can just sit back and get carried without much effort.

So I picked up the machinist. The main reason behind it being the "songs" so it still seemed somewhat supportive and useful.

I played it bit, looked up the rotation, leveled it to 60 and then got kinda curious how much useless I was - so here I installed the parser... and it was horrible. The MCH dps being a little bit lower in itself helped neither. Anyways, after the initial shock of trying to figure out where does the MCH dps stand in the comparison to the other jobs, I managed to get satisfied with my performance... which ended quite fast when I got matched with another MCH who was doing much more than I did. I was seriously baffled by it... how come someone can do so much even though my rotation was golden? It seemed too much even for the gear difference, as I was still gearing up. So I was pondering, hitting the dummy and pondering some more - till it hit me back.

Maybe that useless dexterity potion could contribute more than I expected? You know, waste of gil, the effect is too short, barely noticeable... it did not seem worth it.

Whelp, nope, it boosted my dps so much I was just looking at the screen unable to comprehend it.

Without the parser I would have no idea how much the potions improve your dps contribution.

You may like parsers, you may hate them, but even if they would cause all the toxicity as it is believed they still help you to get better which also makes the experience itself better. Pretty much the better you are the less likely you are to get attacked by the toxic players that you might fear.


Now question time:

How many players do you think use the potions in Ex primals etc. if they have no idea how much dps that one button does? How many enrages could have been stopped? How many players are willing to waste their gil for the sake of killing that primal?

(It would be easier to answer while looking at some parser logs of course :3 but feel free to guess.)

That is a good story =) I am happy to hear that a parser helped you in that way. It is a good thing, though, that having parsers be against the ToS has resulted in people not harassing one for their skill level.

ohh.. wait

So you needed a parser to "git gud" because you didn't think increasing main stat by x amount would result in X DPS gain?

Sorry, but if you need a parser to understand that boosting your main stat will boost your damage by a lot, you have another problem

The food literally tells you it increases stats in the description. If they can't read those, how are they gonna read a parser?

@ These responses, it's pretty fair to assume the effect would be minimal. You have ~1100-1200 DEX + CRIT/SkS/DET etc etc. You increase DEX by 100 (so maybe ~1/13th) for 20s every 5 minutes, that's a 0.4% increase every 5 minutes. It would not be inherently obvious that your damage changes that much in your opener to many, I am sure.

No hard feelings to him but since it's a pro-parser who used this comparison, it's only fair to talk about the possible bad outcome.
That's why, when I made such a comparison I used "baseball bat in a kindergarden", hurting once in a while is a real risk...death...not so much

But, to mix my view on the topic and the gun metaphor : I don't mind you having a gun, as long as you can't point it at me without my consent.

Both guns and bats are bad comparisons, as they both are actually what hits the person. In the case of a parser and harassment, what hits the person is words. The tool, in this scenario, is not a physical object that can cause pain, it is information which may fuel harassment.

When it comes down to it, all of our analogies suck, because there are very few things in this world which are similar. This is a digital tool used in an entertainment medium which is experienced in a cooperative environment for which we pay monthly. I don't know many other things that fit those criteria, outside of other MMO's, which do have parsers and all evidence of their effects are completely anecdotal ("well, when I played WoW, people were jerks with parsers!", "yeah, well I play WoW and i've never seen anyone be a jerk, but I've seen a lot of good come from it." "yeah well...")

[Seraphix2407]

Well, how many proparsers have made gross generalizations and statements about people who don't want parsers? Apparently we are afraid of accountability, afraid of DPS checks, lazy and want entertainment without any effort because how dare we play a game to have fun.

Well, as I mentioned, I respect peoples views and different opinions, so I should ask you where I call people bad names because I disagree with one of them or in this case you.

I never said you or anyone else is afraid of DPS checks, I said people can be lazy yes, but please don't lie without thinking 1 second replying to me about this. You have 3 guys in a expert roulette doing 950-1.300,while last man is 550-600, is this behavior fine to accept? I find this type of people lazy, I really do. When MANY, I swear I could quote all day, when we say low dps, it's 50% lower than it should be, yet people PUT words in our mouth saying 100 less dps is not acceptable.

Since you saw my older post then you should have atleast not ignored the other ones I posted no?

No he wasn't. He said he doesn't want people to harras him, but calling people idiots is fine? If I was telling that group the DPS was low, I would probably been one of those ''idiot's'' he talks about, no? I never told them they were bad, some one left on his own and I left right after, left me and my friend no peneality, because I wanted to help. In all honesty, I get you with your witch-hunt comment, but please, give me a good reason why it's fine to call people ''idiots'' because there are people willing to help others out, but they have no power, before people turn into idiots helping out, or people being offended by the slightest little thing.

He doesn't want people to harras him right? What about a large scale of the community doesn't want people to be lazy or give a damn? Respect goes both ways no? Or am I wrong?

I know I shouldn't posted that one comment, how should I put it.. immature. So I shouldn't have left it there, however, calling idiot's isn't excactly mature, especially saying he doesn't want people to harras him, but started of harrasing people. I take my blame, and I went a bit far there, he however. I'd love to see his own respons on the topic.

Then I replied again:

Thank you for your respons and I'm glad the way you respond. So let me respond you in the same way. I know he didn't single out anyone, I never posted my picture to point it at him. My picture and post was simply about what has been a large topic in this thread for almost 80 pages. I never said he could be one of those types of players, but when people say they can't have fun if someone tell they need to improve, it's just one of them silly arguements, on my honest opinion. Why did I post the picture? Because those people have fun in their own way, they want to do it for themselves and not include others in the party and look how well that went? Now, this doesn't happen often but it happens. There are reasons why it happens and it's been a on going topic throughout the thread:

People having fun in their own way
Refuse to take advices
Maybe they have no one to teach them and perhaps wants help? I don't know there are endless of ways and why they are like this.

As I've said before, no one doesn't care if his DPS isn't optimal in dungeons, if that was a thing you would seen it happen in many dungeons. Myself and other people parser dungeons, because we want to commend people who do a real good job. I can see who's trying hard and some aren't. That's why we commend right? To give the best player in group the commendation?

Then look at how this person talked to me before he/she said this:

I apologize... i was a bit abrupt and could have been a bit more tactful.

Now me and that person disagree and I might have gone too far myself, even when this person went all out on me, I still ignored it and respect their opinion, after all we have one. BUT, what I DON'T LIKE
is that Preypancer when he/she doesn't agree with others, he starts calling people names and insults them instead. Want my honest opinion? You just sit there and think it's fine. You have to show me where I supported those people that you quoted.

They aren't excactly right or wrong either, it's for me 50% - 50%. There are people and we can't deny it, that exist that doesn't want a parser so they can avoid playing less lazy in dungeons or for example normal alex. This also gives people another reason to get better, because when they are in denial they just seem to ignore the problem than fixing it. Yes they do exist just like people would be assholes about parsers. I admit they exist, time to admit people on your side (not all but few atleast) doesn't want one so they have no reason to get better. I'm just being honest here. Keep in mind there is a bigger scale of PS4 players who want's a parser than PC players, for obvious reasons. Why do people hate Ps4 players soooooooooooooo much.

Yes then if someone is a jackass to you, then report them, seriously do it. I hate people who would talk trash like that too, I also even told people not to. Only difference between 1-2click dps, decent dps and top dps is:
super slow run
not so slow
super fast runs
I'm all okay for those dungeon runs, because keep in mind some people are new as well on the super slow runs as well. But when I KNOW people dont click their buttons often,thats an issue. But you don't and I trust you on that. So if people talk bad, then report them.

This is what I quoted to the guy I posted the pictured and asked him if this was the type of fun. Like I said I went a bit far and I even said sorry, now, for me it's hard to see what people means when they have fun. Many have fun and keeps wipes for hours because they accept it, while other groups wipes a few times here and there still have fun. But I think honestly the word ''fun'' is overrused when enrage like 66% happens. Many times people could say they don't care they wipe they have fun. But that's the issue, there are other people in group who want's do down it, what about them? They aren't allowed to have fun and kill it?

[Moomba33]

I will say though I have noticed something with the FFXIV community and SE has noticed it as well we are very competitive. They are adding leaderboards to content like Feast and soon to be Deep Dungeon. This is just a theory but would perhaps parsers have the same effect because people would want to be the "best" and this in turn would increase DPS in DF? Then you can say the issue would be people wouldn't focus on mechanics but I don't think that would be the case because people would still want to clear content.

The competitive aspect is another reason I don't want group parsers in DF honestly. I'm not a competitive person and I don't want my cooperative Expert Roulettes to turn into a competition between the DPS.

[Remus]

The competitive aspect is another reason I don't want group parsers in DF honestly. I'm not a competitive person and I don't want my cooperative Expert Roulettes to turn into a competition between the DPS.

You don't need to compete. I just gave that as an example of a theory. For some people competitiveness drives them. If you don't care about competing but your DPS is fine nothing to worry about I can understand where you are coming from with your statement though.

[Lambdafish]

The competitive aspect is another reason I don't want group parsers in DF honestly. I'm not a competitive person and I don't want my cooperative Expert Roulettes to turn into a competition between the DPS.

I understand where Remus is coming from. The idea is to encourage peoples competitive sides, for those who have them. Give incentive to see higher numbers rather than saying "get to the end at your own pace". If that doesn't interest you then you simply don't have to do it. It's not a competition between DPS (that would be dumb in a dungeon with a MNK and BRD), its a competition between a DPS and his past "high score".

[Reinha]

When it comes down to it, all of our analogies suck, because there are very few things in this world which are similar. This is a digital tool used in an entertainment medium which is experienced in a cooperative environment for which we pay monthly. I don't know many other things that fit those criteria, outside of other MMO's, which do have parsers and all evidence of their effects are completely anecdotal ("well, when I played WoW, people were jerks with parsers!", "yeah, well I play WoW and i've never seen anyone be a jerk, but I've seen a lot of good come from it." "yeah well...")

I think the analogies of school grades are pretty accurate. Everyone gets a number from a test and they have a right to not show it to their peers. This could be a different case in your country. I've seen pupils afraid or attention for both good and bad grades, annoyed by their not-high-enough-grade, satisfied with their grade, bullied for their grade, congratulated for their grade, unable to get a higher grade because of their mental limitations, unable to get a higher grade because they just don't put in enough effort to practice, and getting ridiculously competitive over grades. Now bear in mind, everyone knows what the best grade, the lowest grade and the average grades are because the grading system is known to all. There is no need to compare to peers because the scale is already known. Everyone has extensive experience getting graded. Yet, that doesn't change the fact that half the people don't get the grade that represents "good" performance. Knowing their previous grade very rarely resulted in a better grade next time as far as I saw. Even in the case of co-operative projects and tasks that affect every team member's grade, people performed at their usual level.

The rotation and general requirements of a dps class tests muscle memory (where are my buttons), short term memory (what buffs are up, where am I in my rotation), long term memory (abilities, what is my rotation, what different rotations do I have: burst/aoe/single target/debuff upkeep), reaction speed (procs, interrupting, positioning, utility spells), processing capacity (environtment, party members status, boss abilities) and studied knowledge of the game (stats, melding, typical combat mechanics, gear acquisition, consumables, role boundaries, repairing gear, mechanics of other classes and jobs). I find the demands very similar to what a school subject might require a student. At the higher end of performance people are required to analyze, find connections and consequences, reflect on past knowledge and be creative.

Maybe this is why I can't take very seriously the ambitious goal of "improving the player base as a whole" when we're talking about public parsers in DF. Has there ever been a case where the public visibility of grades made the whole school get A-grades or even Bs? I doubt it. Peer pressure does not affect everyone and it's effect diminishes the older we get. There is also a gender difference: males are affected by peer pressure more than females are. On average, males become more competitive and more engaged in the activity when there is competition involved, whereas females do not and in some cases become mentally withdrawn and disinterested in the activity. Some people do not flourish in a competitive environment and it would be unfair to give them no choice in this regard (i.e. the ability to choose to show their numbers / choose the content without public parsers / choose groups without public parsers). This is not even taking in to account bullying or test phobia, just regular people who do a bit worse and enjoy it less when it's a competition. Competition also doesn't just mean people getting rewards. It's a situation where people can be put in order from worse to better in some way, like based on dps numbers. Asking people to avoid the subconscious effects of a competitive atmosphere (negative or positive) is not realistic and hence we need to allow people to avoid such an environment altogether as they have been able to so far.

I also wonder if there is an effect to performance when people know or don't know how well they personally did. I recall Sweden having schools where pupils were not given grades at all, but other kinds of feedback. I would be interested to know if there are studies that have measured change or difference in the pupils' performance compared to ones that know their grades. If there is no change or difference then that would make me believe it's not the grade itself that helps people learn but rather the quality of teaching and cultivating internal motivation.

You don't need to compete. I just gave that as an example of a theory. For some people competitiveness drives them. If you don't care about competing but your DPS is fine nothing to worry about I can understand where you are coming from with your statement though.

I understand where Remus is coming from. The idea is to encourage peoples competitive sides, for those who have them. Give incentive to see higher numbers rather than saying "get to the end at your own pace". If that doesn't interest you then you simply don't have to do it. It's not a competition between DPS (that would be dumb in a dungeon with a MNK and BRD), its a competition between a DPS and his past "high score".

If you understand that some people don't want to participate in a competitive environment or activity, then would you be fine with letting people to hide their dps from others and hide others' dps from themselves? Talking about all content except Extremes and Savage.