Would you like an in-game parser?

[Preypacer]

This seems needlessly antagonistic. I also feel you have a very poor understanding of how changes in DPS affect the speed of a run. For example, a run will be ~20 minutes. DPS for the team will be ~3200. If you increase that by 100 DPS, then you are now moving 3% faster. At 20 minutes, that works out to 36 seconds faster. That said, a 100 increase in DPS is fairly minimal, and generally not the kind of thing we are talking about in this thread.

Further, having higher DPS can often help push phases which may slow you down even more (i.e. skipping the 2nd frog phase on the first boss in Anti-Tower, or the 2nd dollhouse, etc.)

(as a side note, a healer can easily exceed 1.2k DPS on AoE with Holy or dots/bane or gravity)

This is gold. Pure gold. The irony is amazing.

Okay, Reiryuu conjures names and numbers clearly off the top of their head to illustrate a point. The names aren't important. The numbers aren't important. The larger point they're making is important.

But did you get that point? No. You didn't. That "whoosh" you might have heard was their actual point as it raced right past you like you were standing still. Why? Because you saw numbers in their post, and your brain went straight into "Numbers!!!" mode.

Consequently, in attempting to refute Reiryuu's remarks, you ended up confirming the actual point being illustrated in their "example".

Bravo.

This is why I describe you people as literally obsessed with numbers.

I have zero idea why you would avoid raiding because of people like me.

Practicing more self-awareness could help with that.

In terms of raiding, I would say that you will want to take your performance seriously.

How quickly you jump to the conclusion that they wouldn't. Why do you feel it necessary to tell them that?

See, this is the condescending, passive-aggressive, arrogant crap people like you spew out on a regular basis - and then you wonder why people react so negatively to the idea of SE implementing official parsers. It's the fear of people like you getting your hands on them.

Reiyruu can obviously speak for themselves (and may have by this post), but I'd wager the problem isn't that they wouldn't take their performance seriously, your implication to the contrary notwithstanding. It's that they wouldn't take their performance seriously enough *for you* and others who reduce FFXIV to a number crunching simulator.

If I were to guess, it's that even if they were satisfied with their performance, and felt that they worked well with the team, dealt with the mechanics well, and that the raid was cleared, people like you would likely be sitting there, poring over post-fight parser data saying, "tut tut.. Nope... Reiryuu, you weren't pulling your weight there. You were clearly 253.7 dps too low compared to the other DPS. That means the raid took us 3% longer to complete than it should have, and you were being carried. You need to work on that." You'd suck the fun right out of playing.

And from what you've said in your post here,and what I've seen others in this thread say, I have 0.001% trouble believing a scenario just like that would play out. Reiryuu wouldn have mere moments to enjoy their victory before they'd be getting lectured on their "sub-par" performance by people for whom FFXIV is all about number crunching and percentages. Heaven forbid they put pure fun ahead of "optimal rotations and dps output at all times". Heaven forbid they "settle" with merely doing "well enough" to clear the content.

If you people could keep the high expectations and obsession over numbers and %'s of numbers to yourselves, I doubt many would care. The problem is you can't. It's impossible. It's why so many on your side of the fence are vocally against having personal parsers that only show your own info. Because it's not your own info you're ultimtely concerned about - it's everyone else's. You're worried how everyone else is playing. You're worried if they're "holding you back". You're worried about if "you're carrying them" - which in itself is another amazingly arrogant stance.

That you people preach "working well as a team" or "supporting your team members", and then turn around and completely dismiss others' efforts simply because they didn't meet your personal standards, is some of the most egregious hypocrisy I've seen in a MMO community. They may have been putting their all into it, playing at their maximum ability at that time, and people like you would just come back with dismissive crap like what you posted above... assuming they're not taking their performance seriously, or declaring that they were carried. And then you wonder why people react so negatively.

And if you're sitting there saying "No.. no.. .thats not it at all. No one's saying any of that", then I would ask you to go back through this thread, including your own posts - nevermind the numerous others covering similar ground - and actually read some of the remarks made by people on your side of the fence with a truly open mind, unclouded by your own biases and obsession over numbers. You people express just that kind of attitude, implicitly and explicitly, in post after post.

That said, try to find a team with like-minded individuals. It sounds like you'd want a casual team, one that can laugh it off when you wipe etc. Regardless, you do have 7 other people who are depending on you, and that should be motivation enough to bring your A game. For me, at least, I hate the idea of screwing up in raid.

You mean a team of people who can actually enjoy the game, take the wipes in stride and keep working at it, all the while remembering it's a game, and the point is to have fun and not stress over numbers? That's actually wonderful advice. I realize that probably makes it entirely accidental coming from you, as having fun for fun's sake, numbers be damned, is probably an alien concept to you - but it's actually the only constructive thing you've said in that entire post.

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.

[Kaurie]

This is gold. Pure gold. The irony is amazing.
Okay, Reiryuu conjures names and numbers clearly off the top of their head to illustrate a point. The names aren't important. The numbers aren't important. The larger point they're making is important.

But did you get that point? No. You didn't. That "whoosh" you might have heard was their actual point as it raced right past you like you were standing still. Why? Because you saw numbers in their post, and your brain went straight into "Numbers!!!" mode.

Consequently, in attempting to refute Reiryuu's remarks, you ended up confirming the actual point being illustrated in their "example".

Bravo.

This is why I describe you people as literally obsessed with numbers.

There is really no need to be so rude. I understood Reiryuu's point completely. The 'point' was that numbers make an insignificant change to the run, where in fact they do make a significant change. I used actual data to prove that point. I am sorry that numbers upset you.

Practicing more self-awareness could help with that.

Eh, again, this is unnecessarily rude.

How quickly you jump to the conclusion that they wouldn't. Why do you feel it necessary to tell them that?

I... didn't jump to that conclusion? I was addressing their post. They said that they are concerned with raiding for reasons of "being a burden" and "being self conscious". One could say, "oh don't worry about that, no one cares how you do!", but that isn't true, I just jumped straight to confirming what they are saying. Yes, taking your performance seriously is important, and if that makes you feel self conscious, then that would be a problem.

See, this is the condescending, passive-aggressive, arrogant crap people like you spew out on a regular basis - and then you wonder why people react so negatively to the idea of SE implementing official parsers. It's the fear of people like you getting your hands on them.

You mean, unlike the direct condescending, aggressive arrogant post that you just wrote up?

I am sorry to Reiyruu if (s)he felt I was being passive aggressive. I thought we were just having an intelligent discussion with opposing view points. I actually enjoyed our back and forth.

Reiyruu can obviously speak for themselves (and may have by this post), but I'd wager the problem isn't that they wouldn't take their performance seriously, your implication to the contrary notwithstanding. It's that they wouldn't take their performance seriously enough *for you* and others who reduce FFXIV to a number crunching simulator.

Again, not what I said.

If I were to guess, it's that even if they were satisfied with their performance, and felt that they worked well with the team, dealt with the mechanics well, and that the raid was cleared, people like you would likely be sitting there, poring over post-fight parser data saying, "tut tut.. Nope... Reiryuu, you weren't pulling your weight there. You were clearly 253.7 dps too low compared to the other DPS. That means the raid took us 3% longer to complete than it should have, and you were being carried. You need to work on that." You'd suck the fun right out of playing.

Yes, this is what I do (though, not nearly as rudely as you are suggesting). I am a raid leader, and finding ways to improve my team is part of what I do. I read through our FFLogs encounter and pick out things and give advice to my team. I had a chat with my Ninja not long ago and let him know that his Active DPS was a bit low, and chatted back and forth with him about why that may be the case. Yesterday, he asked what his active DPS was and it was really good - and he was quite pleased. This is the relationship we have set up.

And from what you've said in your post here,and what I've seen others in this thread say, I have 0.001% trouble believing a scenario just like that would play out. Reiryuu wouldn have mere moments to enjoy their victory before they'd be getting lectured on their "sub-par" performance by people for whom FFXIV is all about number crunching and percentages. Heaven forbid they put pure fun ahead of "optimal rotations and dps output at all times". Heaven forbid they "settle" with merely doing "well enough" to clear the content.

Yeah, this isn't true at all, but you can feel free to assume I am the devil - if you wish.

If you people could keep the high expectations and obsession over numbers and %'s of numbers to yourselves, I doubt many would care. The problem is you can't. It's impossible. It's why so many on your side of the fence are vocally against having personal parsers that only show your own info. Because it's not your own info you're ultimtely concerned about - it's everyone else's. You're worried how everyone else is playing. You're worried if they're "holding you back". You're worried about if "you're carrying them" - which in itself is another amazingly arrogant stance.

I am against a personal parser, because an individual value is not very helpful. If I said to you, "you did 1000 DPS". You would ask... "is that good?". Having a group parser puts your number in line with other people, and you'll see that you did 1000 and everyone else did under 600. Great job! Or maybe you'll see you did 1000 and everyone else had over 2k, OK something is wrong. See how those other numbers make that 1000 value different?

That you people preach "working well as a team" or "supporting your team members", and then turn around and completely dismiss others' efforts simply because they didn't meet your personal standards, is some of the most egregious hypocrisy I've seen in a MMO community. They may have been putting their all into it, playing at their maximum ability at that time, and people like you would just come back with dismissive crap like what you posted above... assuming they're not taking their performance seriously, or declaring that they were carried. And then you wonder why people react so negatively.

I believe working well as a team is very important. However, if people do not take working as a team seriously, I feel there is no hypocrisy in being disappointed with them. It's not really personal standards, as opposed to potential. A "X" job has potential "Y". When one does significantly worse than their potential, then something is wrong. More than likely, they are just unaware that they are below that potential, and that is where a parser could be helpful.

And if you're sitting there saying "No.. no.. .thats not it at all. No one's saying any of that", then I would ask you to go back through this thread, including your own posts - nevermind the numerous others covering similar ground - and actually read some of the remarks made by people on your side of the fence with a truly open mind, unclouded by your own biases and obsession over numbers. You people express just that kind of attitude, implicitly and explicitly, in post after post.

To be frank, I am sitting here thinking - This person is one of the rudest and most ignorant people I have ever had the displeasure of responding to on this forum. For some reason they have a significant issue with reading comprehension and a failure to understand basic arithmetic. Perhaps they should spend more time reading what people are saying, instead of making a large amount of incorrect assumptions about others.

You mean a team of people who can actually enjoy the game, take the wipes in stride and keep working at it, all the while remembering it's a game, and the point is to have fun and not stress over numbers? That's actually wonderful advice. I realize that probably makes it entirely accidental coming from you, as having fun for fun's sake, numbers be damned, is probably an alien concept to you - but it's actually the only constructive thing you've said in that entire post.

This is precisely what i meant. Find people who have the same goals, values and skill level as your own. If you want to go in without a parser, then find 7 others who feel the same way. It's only going to create conflict if people go into the group with different expectations. There are plenty of people like Reiyruu who would love to raid, but have similar concerns. I have no doubt (s)he could find a fun and casual group to run with. I think (s)he would enjoy that a lot more than pugging through DF and PF.

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.

Back at you?

[Reiryuu]

There is really no need to be so rude. I understood Reiryuu's point completely. The 'point' was that numbers make an insignificant change to the run, where in fact they do make a significant change. I used actual data to prove that point. I am sorry that numbers upset you.

Actually, Preypacer hit the nail on the head on what the example was meant to show there. I don't want to fuel the fire so to speak, but since it was my example and my point to be made I feel I had to chime in on that.

Is the only worth of other players the number they make when they press buttons? That seems like a pretty shallow game to me. Why have a game with pretty graphics, music, story and animations and such like that at all? Why not have a giant black box with boxes all over the place and see how fast you can press the buttons in the right combination to make the number as high as possible? It reminds me of a scene in the Phantom Tollbooth-- they come to a city called Reality which is a town no one can see because they stare at their feet so they can get to where they're going as quickly as possible. Over time, the city of Reality faded away to nothing and now it's completely invisible and no one can see it. But no one cares because they know where they're going and they are only concerned with how fast they get there. Is this what FFXIV has or is becoming? Is that what you'd like it to be?

[Seraphix2407]

You mean a team of people who can actually enjoy the game, take the wipes in stride and keep working at it, all the while remembering it's a game, and the point is to have fun and not stress over numbers?.

I know right, like this:

This is gold. Pure gold. The irony is amazing..

And this is also pure irony. Pure gold, like it just came out from the source itself, like fresh fish from the sea. No really I'm serious. There are bunch of ''white knights'' in this thread. ''Parser is bad, stay away, it's the devil yadyada and we all going to die on doomsday because of a parser''
Then you, like I could say it myself:

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.

There are bunch of people in here who talks like parser is a illness and it will spread out and people will be doomed. First of all blaming it on a parser is just plain stupid, yes it is. Give a man a gun and and he shoots, is it the guns fault then? I know it's far from the same scenario, but many in here including yourself make it sound like it. ''Blame the tool not the person whos in controll of it''
That's what many in here do, they really do, believe it or not.

You remind me of this person, you really do, so allow me to quote

So admitedly you want a parser to judge the rest right?snd call them out on it? Exactly the reason why parser should not be added to the game until people grow up

Then:

You judged someone NOT worthy, in essence a piece of s**Thank you for proving what many of us have been saying that this community is NOT mature enough to play with others and why parsers should NEVER BE IMPLEMENTED in this game.

Wants to help community but talks down on people, piece of shit or example your post prey being just completely out of the picture and start insulting, bravo!

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.

[Kaurie]

Actually, Preypacer hit the nail on the head on what the example was meant to show there. I don't want to fuel the fire so to speak, but since it was my example and my point to be made I feel I had to chime in on that.

Is the only worth of other players the number they make when they press buttons? That seems like a pretty shallow game to me. Why have a game with pretty graphics, music, story and animations and such like that at all? Why not have a giant black box with boxes all over the place and see how fast you can press the buttons in the right combination to make the number as high as possible? It reminds me of a scene in the Phantom Tollbooth-- they come to a city called Reality which is a town no one can see because they stare at their feet so they can get to where they're going as quickly as possible. Over time, the city of Reality faded away to nothing and now it's completely invisible and no one can see it. But no one cares because they know where they're going and they are only concerned with how fast they get there. Is this what FFXIV has or is becoming? Is that what you'd like it to be?

Most definitely not. DPS matters, but it is not the only thing that matters. I feel I explained that quite explicitly previously. When you are queued in to a task with 3 other strangers and are all assigned a task to complete together, your relative performance towards that task is an important thing to consider. Yes, teamwork, chatter etc all matters. I will often commend the person who speaks up over the person who tops the DPS charts so-to-speak. That said, to disregard DPS value completely is, in my opinion, a mistake.

[Reiryuu]

I know right, like this:

Ohhhh. I had a group like that the other day. We beat it on the third try, half the group was new. The first attempt was kind of funny I was desperately trying to raise people heal the tanks and do damage till it was only me and the tanks alive and we wiped and tried again... if the DF no less. The second attempt went much better and we decided to give it a third go. Sometimes 3rd time really is a charm. Sure, not all the time, but sometimes.

[Seraphix2407]

Ohhhh. I had a group like that the other day. We beat it on the third try, half the group was new. The first attempt was kind of funny I was desperately trying to raise people heal the tanks and do damage till it was only me and the tanks alive and we wiped and tried again... if the DF no less. The second attempt went much better and we decided to give it a third go. Sometimes 3rd time really is a charm. Sure, not all the time, but sometimes.

This group wasn't new. I would understand if it was, because I've been in groups with 4 new people and stayed till it was cleared and those people did better than those I was with.
Yeah, third time can work sometimes, not always but sometimes!
I'm also well aware that this doesn't happen often because it doesn't. It do happen when 4 dps decide to be lazy at the same time and that's excactly why I'm posting in here. If people was less lazy, this would probably happen less as well. I know you and I don't agree completely on our post and I know you posted something very long towards me earlier, and I forgot to reply to it. I was simply saying an idea, I wasn't even supporting it, just an idea for those who want a personal parsers. I'm open for a open parser not a closed one.

[Reiryuu]

This group wasn't new. I would understand if it was, because I've been in groups with 4 new people and stayed till it was cleared and those people did better than those I was with.
Yeah, third time can work sometimes, not always but sometimes!

I'm glad to see a kind response like this. Now, look back at your comment and how it was presented with that screenshot. Preypacer is saying that people want to enjoy themselves and you're showing a picture of wiping due to an enrage. Saying "I know right, Like this:" Are you meant to imply that all people who want to play to enjoy themselves play like this? Because it can easily be interpreted that way. Did you mean it that way? By your response now, I see no. But before I couldn't be sure.


Sure, we who are arguing against parsers may be exaggerating how often people kick others due to parsed dps, but you guys have to be exaggerating on how many times you, personally, have been in a situation like this picture shows. Me? That one incident I mentioned was the first time I had failed that fight on the first time since the second week of 3.2 and I do that fight every single week multiple times trying to get shafts (getting shafted ftw!) for my non-main jobs [I assume even if foolishly that that's normal not savage because I don't do savage >.>;]

Now, while I'm against parsers, I'm not going to be lighting a torch and going to the offices of SE and saying all people who use parsers should be permanently banned from the game. So, do you spite the few people you run into that have trouble with the fight/learning/doing whatever it is wrong so much that you have to make all of us slaves to your numbers? Do we have to constantly worry that the number hanging over whatever part of our interface SE decides to place it is enough to placate every person we meet? Do the majority of us who do enough to get by have to play your way, because I'm not asking you to play my way.

Option to turn it off?

There is an option to skip cut scenes in dungeons the first time you enter by pressing escape (and one in the options to turn off all previously viewed cut scenes). How many people do you see raging over people who want to watch the cutscenes in main story dungeons their first time through? I mean, it should be an option, right? But people basically require people who feel they need to Duty Finder these dungeons to skip them.

People are basically required to speed run dungeons these days too. Personally, I hate speed runs. It's one of the reasons I am scared to death of tanking in high end content because I don't main tank and I don't have the confidence to pull large groups of mobs. But so long as the tank doesn't go too overboard on me (I main whm), I generally don't mind too much. But I do enjoy a nice casual dungeon romp when the chance presents itself.

Short in short, in the DF there are no options. You play everyone's way or people get upset.

[WeekendSoja]

Be nice if SE made a parser available server...I would be down...I am an advocate of transparency...I don't want to hide behind the anonymity of the Internets social anxieties. I want to perform well and, like in real life, I can respect follow players who also perform well.

It's like a peer system, I can like you as a player, but if I know you're better than me, I may not just up and join your group without at least asking first. With the anonymous lifestyle this game has, DF or PF...everyone just needs to be optimistic and "hope for the best."

I normally get my clears at release of content...all the high-end DPS return to the game and I get things done within that first week of not the second. Listening on my community voice chat server the frustration of people trying to clear Seph EX now...its kind of saddening that they can't get over the DPS check.

Parser available data center would be nice, accountability for all! Less frustration for the parser community!

[Miste]

Holy crap if you people could see yourselves and your attitudes the way others do.

I thought of making a very long post as to why this line is, in your words, "Pure gold. The irony is amazing." but I figured its not worth that much effort

Before you try to bully anyone else with your assumptions and generalizations you might want to look at yourself and your own attitude. If only you could see how some other people see you; maybe you would see how rude and unpleasant you are coming off with your posts.

This is coming from someone who isn't pro official parser or con. I just don't care either way tbh if they add one or not I don't care. You treat other people with differing opinions than you like garbage and bully them just like you did to Kaurie.

You have preconceived prejudice against anyone who is pro-parser which is evident in your posts. You keep saying you don't want parsers because people will bully others with it....think about this for a second.

Hypocrisy. Because you are bullying people over and over in this thread just because they use parsers or enjoy them EVEN if they aren't rude to others with it. They could be nice, helpful, pleasant players but you lump them into your massive generalizations. Like this one...

And further still, it's not enough - for some - to only see their own numbers. They already know they're awesome. No no... they have to see others' numbers, too. They want ALL THE NUMBERS!! Why? So they can lord over those whose NUMBERS!! don't match their own, or meet their own personal "standard" of what others "are required to meet". So they can berate all those "n00bs" and "bads" and "filthy casuals" for daring to exist in their game.

Anyone who wants an official parser just wants to do that? Nope, sorry, you're just making generalizations. Rude ones at that.

Massive generalizations, massive assumptions, rudeness, calling people obsessed just because you don't share their opinion, calling people condescending/passive-aggressive/arrogant just because they were having a polite discussion with someone (that you weren't even apart of). Seriously, just stop it please.