Would you like an in-game parser?

[RobbieH]

The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good

This is like a Job, you go do your work nicely done and then you expect your colleagues to do the same, yet you find yourself sometimes doing THEIR job. And you get paid the same.

Welcome to the human world, real life reflects here.

but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Sorry but this is an invalid argument, people like to vote "yes" just because, or they're with friends and there's still the thing that you can still get kicked if the majority votes yes, which doesn't mean others voted no.

I'm going to quote myself from previous page:

There's this one time (somewhere in the last 5 runs i was doing in Research Facility (150 Lore dungeon) so i could finish Ninja i240 Anima), i went ahead and trigger the elevator after 2nd boss to make it a little bit faster, i got warned by the tank not to pull again (apparently triggering the elevator is a pull) or he would kick me, i proceed to ask how is that a pull and got kicked.

This is an example of vote kick abuse and that premade parties prove that voting "yes" is not an argument but rather a choice of "i'm with my friends so i vote yes".

People who are playing with friends will for the most part vote yes, as will they vote no if it's to kick one of their friends.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions

Yeah let's find a way to fire co-workers that are bad while we're at it, then we'll get more bad ones and still find ourselves doing their work.

The same will happen in the game.

This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".

Yes, i'm sure ALL JP players are flawless, let's all transfer to JP and leave the bad players to themselves, let's jump ship.

Do you know why they strive? Because they help each other, in Europe and Americas people like to criticize but not help each other at all.

What have people been doing the last few pages? Complain, have they helped "bad players" meanwhile? No.

TL;DR There's a mentor system, when it came out it was nice to show off the crown icon, but 95% of those people didn't help anyone, being them new or old players. No let's all complain, it's easier. Now some of those people who could have been taught the game better are bad players, alright.

[Kosmos992k]

We had already an official statement in the forum confirming this

Kicking someone from a party for playing poorly isn't harassment.

as a valid reason to kick.

Seems some already have forgotten this.

Yes, and no. Someone deliberately playing poorly, someone deliberately not trying; in order to annoy others and disrupt their play is both a valid reason to kick and easily defended.

Not playing up to some arbitrary standard that you have in your head about how they should/should not play, isn't a valid reason to kick and you can be reported for griefing because you are disrupting another player's game.

I wish that people would listen, hear and understand when 'official' statements are made instead of only hearing what they want to hear.

Could poor play be a valid reason for kicking someone? Yes it could. Could being kicked because you don't meet someone's arbitrary standard of goodness be a valid reason for reporting someone for harassment? Yes it could.

I think everyone needs to think before kicking. Just because you can convince a majority of players in a party that it's easier to kick someone than continue with them, doesn't make you right. You have the ability to remove players, what matters is how you use that ability and when.

[Kaurie]

Could poor play be a valid reason for kicking someone? Yes it could. Could being kicked because you don't meet someone's arbitrary standard of goodness be a valid reason for reporting someone for harassment? Yes it could.

This depends on what you define as arbitrary. If, say, you are doing an ex primal. Your party finded group is failing a DPS check. You look at the parser and you see 4 DPS (will put them as relative values to top DPS, rather than an actual number). DPS 1: 100%, DPS 2: 95%, DPS 3: 93%, DPS 4: 63%. Would it be arbitrary to kick DPS4 in this situation, as you are missing a DPS check and they are clearly underperforming relatively to the rest of the party?

[Kosmos992k]

This depends on what you define as arbitrary. If, say, you are doing an ex primal. Your party finded group is failing a DPS check. You look at the parser and you see 4 DPS (will put them as relative values to top DPS, rather than an actual number). DPS 1: 100%, DPS 2: 95%, DPS 3: 93%, DPS 4: 63%. Would it be arbitrary to kick DPS4 in this situation, as you are missing a DPS check and they are clearly underperforming relatively to the rest of the party?

If you're using parser data as a reason to kick, I think you already know the response.

[Kaurie]

If you're using parser data as a reason to kick, I think you already know the response.

We're talking hypothetically if parsers are added. You said that poor play is only a valid reason to kick someone if they are intentionally playing bad, but not if it is to an arbitrary standard. I wanted to know if you feel that not having the ability to complete the duty counted as arbitrary. It sounds as if you do.

Personally, I find that an odd stance, but at least we cleared it up.

[Kosmos992k]

We're talking hypothetically if parsers are added. You said that poor play is only a valid reason to kick someone if they are intentionally playing bad, but not if it is to an arbitrary standard. I wanted to know if you feel that not having the ability to complete the duty counted as arbitrary. It sounds as if you do.

Personally, I find that an odd stance, but at least we cleared it up.

Being able to complete the duty means what? Back in the day, parties wiped many, many times to Titan HM. Is one wipe enough to mean that a player cannot complete the duty? Are two wipes enough? Where do you draw the line?

If we are talking about things in the MSQ, or light party content, or normal/hard mode (not raid or alliance) content, then I think that such judgements have no purpose. Because in general, parties are capable of clearing such content with ease, even with sub par performance. Titan HM being an obvious exception to that (at the time), and if you remember it was quite contentious at the time too...

For EX content, raids and alliance content I view things a bit differently because that is optional content, and by undertaking it you are accepting that it's a greater challenge and therefore better than average performance is expected. If you are framing your situation about kicking a player for poor performance in EX/raid/alliance content, I can see your point. If it's in 'ordinary' content, I do not.

However, I still feel that kicking for performance is a problem. On the other hand if you PF'd and made clear the expectations of the group, I don't see an issue because you clearly set the expectation. But, if you DF'd it, short of someone intentionally sabotaging your run, I think you need to be careful about insta-kicking because you think they are not performing well enough.

That's where the whole judgement aspect of the advice about whether or not performance is a valid reason to kick someone comes into play. It's not entirely cut and dried.

To bring this back to the original topic, and relate it to this discussion, using parsers in content outside of the EX/raid/alliance tier of content is pretty well pointless and open to abuse. I say this because the fundamental truth of the topic is this; With or without a parser, with or without a coach, with or without being berated over performance, players who want to improve will seek ways to improve and players who do not, will not. Parsers won't change that. I think we all know that this is true.

The discussion about kicking people is really a distraction in this topic. Perhaps people are trying to find a justification for having public parsers so they can valiate their reasons for kicking people? Perhaps it's just about a distorted example to justify the presence of a parser? I don't know and I don't really care because those who want to improve will, and those who do not will not. Parsers and/or kicking people in DF over performance, will never change that.

The excuse that "DF matches you against random people, you shouldn't expect the party to be good" is really flawed. I always expect the party to be good, because I expect if you're going to be participating in team-based content then you're going to want to play your part in said team.

Since that team is random, you cannot have any reasonable expectation other than warm bodies holding controllers. That is the point of DF, it's for everyone, whether they are good, bad or indifferent, whether they play like pro-bros or newbies. It's everyone and DF exists explicitly for that purpose.

If you don't, then I will give you advice or ask you to participate if you're just doing cartwheels. If then you decide to still play poorly or not at all, then I'm starting a vote dismiss on you. You bring up "he pays the same sub you do, you're both equal" - but what you're ignoring is that kicking someone isn't down to just one player deciding to boot someone, it's a vote. If the team thinks your mentality/playstyle doesn't mesh well with theirs, then they have every right to remove you from it.

Willfully ignorant players should be held accountable for their actions - this applies across the board to tanks, healers, and DPS. This is why the JP DF scene thrives - everyone feels like they need to play their part and if they mess up or under perform they feel guilty about it, they don't just go "meh w/e still won doesn't matter lololol".

You do realize that Party Finder is for what you want, and Duty Finder was created so that players without a group could at least find warm bodies to fill the roster right?