Would you like an in-game parser?

[KarstenS]

I learn, I try strats and strategies, and i do my damndest in df

But how much success you will have this way and how do you know about that?

Just a quick fictive example: You do it this way and have the feeling you are quite good. But in reality, you are just performing around 20% compared to really good players at the same class/job.

You never will know when you just trust your feelings.

[Neophyte]

If there would be no parser and I really want to have better results by kicking the bad ones, I'd just kick those of my party who [i]seem[\i] to be the problem.
I'd try to [i]proof[\i] it by looking on the attacks (rotation) they perform written in the chatlog and on the numbers shown there, if he does something like 24 GCDs per minute and his gear.
If I don't like his 'different playstyle'... kick.

I guess that's better than using a parser.

[Seraphix2407]

I still don't want parsers in the game, mostly because I see the problem of people getting into arguments and infighting in DF and PF to get worse.

It already happens for a reason, because people play how they want and it ruins for the other players. Blame them.

[Seraphix2407]

I hate taking exams every day.

Only way to pass one is to be good enough. If you arent you never tried your best to learn.

[Seraphix2407]

You don't like taking tests. You're afraid of failing the test. Parsers are a DPS "test". If your DPS is low you fail, if it's high you pass. What if you found out you always had super high DPS. Would you still be afraid of parsers? I honestly don't think you argument is some altruistic stance that "people will be mean to others" but rather a selfish "I don't want people to be mean to ME because I'm bad." But what if you're super pro and 90th percentile in your class? That would be good to know right?

People are selfish. Said it many times. When they do whatever they want its all me me me.

[Krissey]

I use a parser to practice my opener so I know I'm doing it right. I still mess it up 80% of the time. Why is Dragoon so hard?

[ToasterMan]

I use a parser to practice my opener so I know I'm doing it right. I still mess it up 80% of the time. Why is Dragoon so hard?

The button bloat in this game is a huge problem. It makes a lot of classes much harder than they should be. I REFUSE to do anymore raiding until SE fixes it. I haven't had any fun with the classes at higher levels in this expansion. SE should make reasonable classes to play in hard encounters. Not the other way around.

[Ayuhra]

The button bloat in this game is a huge problem. It makes a lot of classes much harder than they should be

This is a problem in this game, I think. I enjoy a slightly more simplistic rotation but complex bosses. Classes are built around strict mechanical precision here, it seems like. If you slip you can slip badly which IMO makes some classes more stressful than fun.

Anyway, REGARDING PARSERS:


I think people have to understand where the apprehension towards a party-wide meter is coming from. Since I usually performed high on the meters in the groups I ran with in other games I was rarely harassed but there was some harassment that occured. The big problem with the meters I think is that it turns killing a boss into a pissing contest between the DPS in a group. No longer is the objective to kill the boss, it's to do better than your own party members. A definite competition sets in for them in a way it doesn't for healers or tanks. If you are not a naturally competitive person this can feel stressful. If you are looked at as a number instead of a tank or a healer it feels dehumanizing (And we are numbers, I mean we're called "Damage Per Second" instead of "Damager" or "Damage Dealer" within the community).

Since there are a lot more DPS than healers or tanks we are also conditioned to believe we'll be replaced in the blink of an eye if we don't soar like an eagle in numbers. Which means...

A parser can, and WILL, if introduced lead to bad behavior especially early on. I remember when we first got popular meter addons in WoW, people just acted like idiots. Rogues and feral druids would refuse to switch targets because they were bent on getting off a 5cp finisher so adds caused all sorts of issues. Additionally, people were jumping in too soon, bursting at the beginning of a fight, not cutting off dots before threat wipes (like Hydross)...all because they wanted to be at the top of the meter. Congratulations, we wiped but you certainly did rock those meters because you used your long, massive cooldowns early instead of saving them for an execution phase.

Meters can screw with class populations too. When everyone knows what dps class performs highest (because everyone will have the tools to figure it out) everyone will flock there. Not a huge problem, really, but some might find it annoying.

Actual damage meters will absolutely cause some deep changes in our little community. It's completely silly to say they won't. That said, they can still be used as a valuable tool especially for hardcore statics and they will not be abused as much as people think. They won't make jerks out of people who weren't jerks already. They WILL give said jerks a megaphone, though, so you'd have to brace yourselves for that.

How do I feel about them personally? I am, perhaps surprisingly, pro parser. They are a very handy tool in the right hands and it's nice to be able to see your own DPS and be able to adjust it on the fly. To me knowing my damage output is far less stressful than NOT knowing. The parser would just have to be good and not get confused by things like dots or counting Egis as entirely different combatants than the SMN who controls them.

[Ghishlain]

The amount of strawman in this thread is getting amusing, to say the least.

Here's an intentional strawman argument for you anti-parser posters:

The performance of an AST is completely dependent on the performance of the party members they are buffing. Buffs that give 10% more damage to a single target should obviously be applied to those doing the most damage. Because you don't support a group parser, you guys are intentionally preventing AST from performing at the same level and optimization as WHM and SCH because ASTs don't have the data available to gauge who their best DPS is in their current group to give these buffs too. You guys are telling ASTs "too bad, so sad, go play a different healer if you want to play at your best".

Okay, now that I've gotten that out of the way.

Most players who support a parser understand what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior. For example:

1. [ACCEPTABLE] An i180 BRD joins a Bismark EX farm party. They wipe to Serpents on the first pull and after looking at the data, they determine this BRD is only doing 400-500 DPS. They see if they can make it work but because the BRD isn't pulling their weight, they leave, respectively tell the BRD that they should improve, and remove the BRD from the party.
   
2. [UNACCEPTABLE] An i170 MNK queues up for EXDR and gets put into their group. The parse shows the MNK is doing 1,000 DPS which is really good for someone who's new to the job and still of low ilvl to current standards. The SMN in the party who's i220 and rocking 2,000 DPS (when combining boss and trash numbers) starts to bad mouth the MNK about their numbers and initiates the boot. The MNK is then booted.

Most people understand that example #2 is grounds for harassment and should be reported and left to the GMs to deal with. There's no evidence to suggest that an introduction of a parser will suddenly increase the number of times example #2 will occur. And even if it does occur, report it and move on. We don't want that kind of toxicity in this game and if people can't keep their entitlement in check, they need to be punished for it.

At the topic of third party tools - Most players understand the a DPS measuring tool is not the same as a DPS (or any performance) enhancing tool. Things like Bots, Big Boss Mod, Trigger Callouts on ACT - these are all definitions of enhancement tools that directly change how the game is played.

A DPS meter doesn't play the game for the player. It gives the player data on their performance so they can adjust themselves and improves their performance. Note that the measuring tool itself doesn't suddenly make a player get instantly better. What it does is gives them a starting point to gauge where they are and they can experiment themselves to see how they can get that number to increase. The tool isn't playing the game for them or telling them "Do this so you don't die to that".

Every role in this game has to be able to perform. DPS unfortunately don't have a way to gauge that performance at this time. Again, most players playing this game understand that there is more to an individual's performance than their numbers. They also have to understand the mechanics of a fight and how to answer those mechanics while completing their primary role. If a DRG gets targeted by mechanics in a fight, their number will obviously be lower than if they were targeted zero times. What I'm trying to say is that the DPS measuring tool itself is just one piece of the puzzle that determines how well a DPS is performing and unfortunately that puzzle piece is hidden from view at this time.

[EDIT] Yes, I also understand that I contradict myself in some respects because a DPS meter would be an enhancement tool in the niche case of an AST. It's something I don't mind because without this tool, an AST really cannot perform at the same level as WHM or SCH and they would have to rely on a third party tool to do that.

[EDIT 2] Also, yes everyone's "standard of acceptance" will be different and while there are some extreme cases that are very obvious, there are also grey area cases that are much less obvious. This is also why I suggest S-E implement a minimal DPS requirement for all content if they were to introduce a DPS measuring tool so that the "standard of acceptance" is defined by the developer and not the player base. This should help stunt a large number of "grey area harassment" cases.

[Seraphix2407]

Totally agree with you. Last night I was in midas 4 and saw 2 dps with 210weapons. Okay they could done slightly more but then again the gear wasnt soo good, few 220 230 and 210 book. Then you have the 222mnk with 230 weapon doing 1.6. For me this was acceptable and I honestly rarely call out people in fight like that or dungeons. Whats not acceptable is when you have 230 weapon and 220plus ilvl and do less 600-700less than he should its a problem.