Would you like an in-game parser?

[Xlantaa]

- Things that are true -

The best post I've read about this. Exactly what I'm thinking but I couldn't never explain myself.

[Kezy_Kaatapoh]

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

Except that is definitively and verifiably not true. You're missing the part where parsers have existed for those 3 years and every (EVERY!!!) top group has used them. I'd argue every group that's cleared (minus maybe a couple outliers) before nerfs have had at least one person parsing. This is a large crux of your argument that's flat false.


The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, and that is gauge their performance as a DPS. People on PC who want to parse already are, so in reality, only PS3/PS4 players now receiving a parser would see any real change from this.

Now for the rest of your argument, it seems to me mostly more fear of abuse. As said more than once, abusive players are abusive players. They will find a way to abuse you with or without a parser. Why is parser abuse worse than non parser abuse? So what if it's another tool to use? They already have plenty of tools! Not to mention a lot of those abusers are the ones actually doing poorly. So having a parser will in many situations remove a tool for them to abuse you with.

The thing is, abuse will always be abuse. You can and should report it. GMs have been very good from what I've seen at dealing with actual abuse. Note: actual. Someone telling you your DPS is low is not abuse. It's simply stating a fact that probably hindered or blocked the group from completing the content.

I agree with what someone else said before. There will probably be an influx of abuse at the start, but that'll subside as GMs cut those people abusing it out. Although, to be honest, even an influx of abuse I don't think will be much. This is anecdotal, sure, but I've seen abusive players only 5 times in the time I've been playing, which was only a month or two after PS3 release. Maybe I'm lucky, but I feel if someone is constantly seeing heavy abuse, it's a sign that there's something you could work on. This doesn't absolve the abusers. They are still to blame, as acting that way isn't acceptable, but you can't control them. You can control you though.

[Zojha]

The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, [...]

Namely to violate the terms of service via third party programs that only a PC can run?

I'd really appreciate if people could finally stop using the PS3/PS4 argument. PCs are simply more capable than consoles due to the ability to freely run third party programs. As such, PC players will always be able to do more than console players, they will always have more abilities. Using this advantage however is prohibited by the terms of service and the only reason people aren't being banned for parsing right now is because SE is nice and lenient. If you actually want equality, ask SE to stop being nice, because that's what the inequality stems from. And if you don't, please just stop using the argument.

[Preypacer]

Except that is definitively and verifiably not true. You're missing the part where parsers have existed for those 3 years and every (EVERY!!!) top group has used them. I'd argue every group that's cleared (minus maybe a couple outliers) before nerfs have had at least one person parsing. This is a large crux of your argument that's flat false.

It's not false. People choose to use parsers. They don't have to use them. It's a choice, not a requirement.

Saying "EVERY!!!" top group has used them is just argumentum ad populum.

It also implies so-called "top players" aren't good enough to defeat encounters without add-ons/3rd party tools to help them. You're implying they need a crutch to do so. You're implying that relying on their own skill, knowledge of their given role/job, ability to coordinate and communicate, and learn the mechanics through trial-and-error, isn't enough; they still fall flat. You're saying every (EVERY!!!) top group isn't quite as good as they seem to think, since - according to you - every (EVERY!!!) one of them requires add-ons to clear it.

That's effectively what you're saying.

Not very flattering! I suspect some in the end-game community would take exception to your broad-stroke characterization of them.

The thing is, people want an official in game parser mostly to bring PS3/PS4 players the ability to do what the PC players have had the capability to do for ages, and that is gauge their performance as a DPS. People on PC who want to parse already are, so in reality, only PS3/PS4 players now receiving a parser would see any real change from this.

You mean what the PC players have had the ability to do unofficially, on the down-low. You're talking like parsers have already been officially sanctioned by SE and are considered legit, but just haven't made it to consoles, yet. You're talking like number parsers are something Yoshi-P has officially spoken out in favor of on an official level. He, quite clearly, hasn't. Again, you seem to be arguing from this position of "Well, people are already using them, therefor they're necessary, and everyone should have access to them!", while ignoring all of the facts that clearly run counter to that. Your argument is pure confirmation bias. Unfortunately for you, ignoring readily and easily verifiable facts, however inconvenient they are to your narrative, doesn't make them go away.

Now for the rest of your argument, it seems to me mostly more fear of abuse. As said more than once, abusive players are abusive players. They will find a way to abuse you with or without a parser. Why is parser abuse worse than non parser abuse? So what if it's another tool to use? They already have plenty of tools! Not to mention a lot of those abusers are the ones actually doing poorly. So having a parser will in many situations remove a tool for them to abuse you with.

I love this attitude. It boils down to: "Jerks will be jerks regardless, so what's the difference if we give them one more way to do so, eh?"

Of course, in your case, "... as long as I get what I want!" is appended to the end of that statement.

I mean, after all, as long as you get what you want (an official parser), then hey, you'll just accept it as a necessary side-effect, right? Let others deal with it. You, and/or others in your camp will be too busy obsessing over others' parser numbers to see who the "bads" are to care!

It's also plainly hypocritical. You people are crying foul about not having something the game has never officially supported, and that you do not need to clear content (unless, again, you're not actually as good as you want to think), and consider it some great injustice. Yet you turn around and are basically "pfft.. whatever. Others will work it out" about the fact that the inclusion of said thing would empower people to become even bigger ass-hats than they already are to people who are just trying to enjoy playing the damn game.

Your priorities are backwards.

Every single person paying to play this game has a fair expectation that they should be able to play the game as they like, at their own pace, and enjoy the experience within the confines of what the game offers and supports. Conversely, you, and others in your boat, have no legitimate expectation that the experience must include an official parser. In other words: Your want for an official parser, something you have absolutely no reasonable expectation of in FFXIV (it's never been promised to you), is not more important than others' desire to play the game and experience it without unwanted harassment from people who think it's their place to impose their playstyle/preferences on everyone else, "because numbers".

Per Yoshi-P - in his words, and actions (SSS) - it's not going to be officially part of the game any time soon. He's mentioned that when player add-ons become a thing, that players will likely create them. And you better believe he'll be keeping an eye on how that data is used/misused. His decision is not made lightly. He's explained his position on this subject. He's expressed his fears, which stem from the fact that when players have access to other people's combat data, it tends to get abused - a lot. That's the reality of the situation. He knows it. I know it. And you know it - though you readily dismiss it. Coming here and talking about "well PC players have already been using them, so console players should have access to them too" only demonstrates that you are completely and utterly indifferent to the reality of the situation. Again, you want what you want, and that's all that matters to you. "Everyone else can just deal with it".

And all because some people are - again, literally - obsessed with numbers... especially others'.

You can spin, argue, dismiss and try to rationalize it all you like. There's over a decade of evidence, across myriad MMOs, where many people will take parser data and use it to bludgeon other players, for no other reason than "because they can", and feel they have the right to. Yoshi-P - rightfully so - does not want that crap in this game, any more than it already is.

And again, if you don't like what I say about that group of people... don't get mad at me. I don't make people act the way they do. I'm just pointing it out. If you want official parsers to be seen with a more positive attitude and more accepted... turn your anger on the assholes in your own sub-community who abuse them, and ruin it for everyone else. If you want to see a difference in attitudes towards official parsers, don't go after the people voting against them. They have over a decade's worth of reasons to. Go after the people in your pro-parser group giving them a bad name in the first place.

[Ghishlain]

-Snip-

The easy solution to this is S-E states what the acceptable lower limit of DPS is when they release a parser and suddenly you can't weaponize the numbers and "Well you aren't meeting MY standards of play" because the player base has no say in that anymore.

If the harasser is playing that card at that point, report them for harassment and move on. We don't need those kinds of ignorant people polluting the game anyway.

[Singularity]

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases

Is it so clear as that? Players have been clearing content without an official parser for three years. That much is demonstrably true, but it doesn't mean they haven't been using unofficial parsers. Certainly at least some groups have - the evidence may be found in many publicly available kill videos.

SE have a vested interest in improving the skill level of the player base. The better people are, the more of the content they will do and the longer the game will hold their interest (and therefore their subscription). If one defines that which "the game needs" as that which will keep its population as high as possible, then the game needs a player base that is capable of playing all of the game.

I agree that giving the player base access to officially sanctioned group parsing would put a tool in the hands of those who would abuse it (and sadly I think that that group outnumbers those that would use it to help others). In fact I am almost completely happy with the current state regarding parsers (i.e. yes, but don't talk about it except among friends), with the sole exception that it disadvantages PS4 players. So I support implementation of an official DPS readout for personal use.

For the purposes of seeing how good one's numbers are, perhaps SE could also implement an anonymised built-in leaderboard (basically an anonymous version of fflogs) that would show you where you stand relative to other players on the same job doing the same content and at similar iLvl. That would be a more useful benchmark than the other players in the party anyway.

[KarstenS]

The question is "Do players in this game, FFXIV, need the parsers to clear content? Are parsers necessary?"

And the answer to that question - definitively and verifiably - is no, they aren't. Players have been clearing the content just fine without them for almost 3 years now - and doing so pretty darn quickly in many cases.

And you proof is where?

Its just what you think. But ist not what it is. You will not find a group, that have done a "current tier" endgame raid without knowing their performance.

Did you have finished just a single one of this type of content as long it was "current content"?

I will eat my shorts if you did. So where do you take your "knowledge"?

The answer to your question is: No.

[ToasterMan]

Another question is, would parsers give ammunition to those already prone to being asshats, to become even more so? Historically, in every other MMO they've been in, yes, it will. Those people already exist in this game. They even post in these forums - at least a few in this very thread.

[ToasterMan]

snip

Someone give her a medal, I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Like I said before, Raiders can get very nasty. One of the reasons I quit was because I wasn't going to put up with that garbage anymore.

[Seraphix2407]

Seems to me people are doing just fine without parsers to tell them what they already know - that they're doing sufficient output, and dancing to the mechanics sufficiently to defeat the content. But that's not enough. There's gotta be NUMBERS!

No. Just no. This isn't just about numbers. You put a guy in a fight where BLM's for example or BRD/MCH has to move alot, they wouldn't need to move for jack shit on SSS. Put them in a fight like sephirot, thordan, midas savage etc, you will see it will ring another tone.
Example, a mnk can do insane dps on a stupid dummy, once they in a fight it will be different, with mechanics. Numbers only? What about your dps is low as 900 in a fight, then you suddenly want to use a parser or anyone else, they see it and they will probably think: Damn, this dps is low. How do I improve it? Well first, did he beat the dummy? Yes, did he do the mechanics on it? No. So this is where the parser is going to be the real deal, you look at it, find out what you doing wrong, fix it and voila you have increased the dps. There are fights you wanna hold your cds or even use them right away. It's all different from fight to fight. So numbers only? Nope.

Someone give her a medal, I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Like I said before, Raiders can get very nasty. One of the reasons I quit was because I wasn't going to put up with that garbage anymore.

Yes it sucks you been through some nasty people. But we all have, in some sort of form. I'm all up for teaching people their rotations or improve their skills if they are willing to listen to, oh hey! I have met those people, and guess what? They come to me and they wanna hug the living shit out of me because I made them get better? That feeling is amazing. But you know what made me stay away from helping people for a while? Those who refused to listen to advice and tells me to fuck off. So those who refuses gets nasty as well

It all comes down to the same thing, if you're going into something in a particular role, you have to fulfill that role.

Holy... Okay this post has to be one of the best and THE most simpliest post on this forum. DPS job is to yes... DO DPS. Damage!!!!!! If you can't forfill that role, you have to either change or simply take advice from players. As this guy mention, tanks and healers gets easily screwed over, while a dps can afk for 10000 years in 24 man raid and still clear it. I know its faceroll content but how about when tanks lose aggro or healers doesn't heal? So sir, thank you for this post.