Fresh 60 Help.

[Jpec07]

And?

I explained why your lack of experience was the issue, what perspective you were missing.

In an effort to hopefully help discussions on this forum be friendly to all individuals, I'm going to take a minute to go off-topic and explain just what an ad hominem is and why it doesn't work.

There is a difference between saying "my experience raiding has been that this is not the case" and saying "your argument is invalid because you don't have experience." The first is a valid argument that provides additional evidence to advance discussion to a logical conclusion, while the second is an ad hominem that does not in any way address the point being discussed, and instead seeks to invalidate it based on some fact that does not have bearing on the actual argument. One addresses and advances the discussion, while the other debases it.

Think of it logically. "The statement that group DPS will eventually rise to the point where tanks don't need to play beyond the intended design of their jobs is erroneous because the person saying that has never done savage raiding in this game." Do you see why that doesn't work? It doesn't actually address the point. Seeking to derail discussion based on some fact about the other party discussing it doesn't actually answer the problem.

Now for the flip side. "My experience raiding suggests that other party members cannot be relied on to consistently perform adequately, so the statement that group DPS will eventually allow tanks to stop working as hard to put out high numbers is false." Do you see why that one does work by comparison? It actually addresses the point, and introduces more information to the discussion without derailing it.

Targeting any aspect about someone else in an effort to invalidate their statements does nothing to advance discussion, or to arrive at a correct conclusion.

That's a lovely dream there. "As gear increases, dps will increase". Yeah...............no.

If you ever pug A5S, you'll find that this might be true if you're lucky. Gear will increase someone's dps SLIGHTLY. I've seen dps with vastly different ilvl's pull similar numbers (on the low end of the scale). I've seen healers out dps dps (and dps then get kicked). Even in raid groups, you will still people geared to the 9's doing the bare minimum dps. (Not for long though) So it's a lovely idea, but you're relying on the idea that all raiders are skilled... nope. Quite often, you will have to put yourself out there and play to the best of your abilities to pass simple things. Like faust. I've seen groups with 230 weapons fail hummelfaust.

When in a static raid group or team, it absolutely is true. Watching someone go from 220 to 230 average iLvl will see a fairly substantial rise in that person's ability to output damage, just as going from 190-200 did.

When dealing with PUGs, you're right, though. Better gear doesn't mean a better player, just a person who's invested more time into the gearing grind. I, too, have seen characters "geared to the nines" who couldn't play their class/job for crap, and who were completely outclassed by newly-leveled characters. In 3.15, I watched multiple iLvl 210 players die in Void Ark to things like Chuchulainn's Death Vomit Attack (TM), or get hit by the last boss' Petrify. This is universal, and spans just about every facet of collaborative multiplayer online gaming (to add another anecdote, the other night in the Overwatch beta, I kept getting grouped up with level 25+ players who constantly overcommitted, and who refused to coordinate or group up - but then got grouped with a handful of level 5-10 players who destroyed them). Point being that the number someone wears online does not usually correspond to that person's ability, skill, or performance.

You can always make up for undergeared teams with time. You cannot stop trying to make up for underskilled or underachieving party members. Complacency leads to being stuck on A3S for 6 months.

Wouldn't it be better to try to help those party members improve? Obviously this won't work with any kind of PUG, but if that person is in your FC and is part of your static, wouldn't better results come from helping them become a better player (at mechanics, at timing cooldowns, at using rotations, etc.)?

Talk about raiding concepts all you like, but let's talk about what it is to raid, and to raid on curve.
I'll start with my own story of T13.

Week 1 of T13: Spirits are high, watching the MT (me) getting stomped is funny the first few times. Don't make it much past phase 1 because we're tired from clearing T12 for the first time, next few nights are just trying different things, getting used to positions.
Week 2: Much the same, some phase 2 but the balls are giving us trouble.
Week 3: Balls are not so much an issue, but the second add is having an aggro issue, getting the whm to stop medica II'ing as it spawns helps.
Week 4: Clearing second add consistently just feeling out stuff. We only raided 6hours a week, and a little bit of time is still spent not stuffing up T11/T12.
Week 5: Get up to third add, all dps now have the 130 weapon. Nailing phase 1 and most of phase 2. Get to the first divebombs.
Week 6: Start working on the adds/divebomb phase.
Week 7-11: Working on divebomb phase get through it occasionally but not consistently. Spirits get pretty low during this time. Everyone has full 130ish by now, due to pity drops coming out/hunts for upgrade items.
Week 12: We're trying all sorts of things to get through adds and the final phase, but it's not working. Group disbands.

Was it anyone's fault? No. Would having turned around and said "Oi DPS you need to do MORE DPS there's no EXCUSE" have helped? Of course not. But that feeling of "shit, why can't we get this" "what can I do to edge across the line" "how can I play better?", is not something you get by "understanding raid theory". Get in there, give it a shot. Wipe at 5%,4%,3%,2%, 1% and tell me you're not going to look at yourself and go "what can I do better next time?" "how can I get us across the line?" "how can we clear this?"

Raiding is a team activity, and in a team activity you need to always pull your weight. Turning around and going "well dps, you should be doing more DPS! Tank and healer dps isn't needed" is a great way to get yourself kicked. I'm aware of the interview about raid design, and even if they said "raids are designed around x,y,z", raiding on curve requires doing more than the bare minimum to pass. If you want to enter after full 230 gear, that's your choice. But that's a vastly different fight to the one's I've been progressing on. And I'm not saying you can't discuss raid theory (be my guest), I'm saying you if you aren't in there, experiencing wipe after wipe and trying to do better each time, you don't have the experience to be giving advice on raiding (two different things). If you get in there, with 7 other people and they're all doing what is technically required, but you're not passing, what are you doing to do?

Keep doing the bare minimum because "I'm doing my job, and that's all I gotta do"? Because that's what 7 other's are doing as well, and it's not working.
Or will you try something, like swapping stances for a bit because maybe, just maybe, that little extra damage will get you across the line?

While a very great amount of this consists of yet more ad hominem, I feel like it's finally starting to address the actual point. You are speaking as if I have never raided at all, when that is simply not the case. I know what it is to raid. I know what it is to try with your friends to challenge a boss, and to wipe at a fraction of a percent consistently for weeks on end. I know what it is to feel that pressure, to ask what more can be done. And yes, in situations like that, switching stances for a few seconds here and there, or letting the RoH debuff drop so you can push full RA combos can be really helpful, and might just give you that edge you need.

I never once said stance dancing was bad, I just said it wasn't necessary for a new tank to do. What I am replying to, and debating against, is this:

Learn to get comfortable tanking in Sword Oath

The advice given here doesn't talk about the nuances involved, or the fact that your healers will probably hate you if you stay in Sword Oath all the time (or even that you shouldn't stay in Sword Oath all the time). The statement here seems to suggest 100% Sword Oath usage, which will make things unnecessarily difficult, and could result in pulling nightmares, and turns every tankbuster into a nail-biter. Was that what you meant? No. You've elaborated your point in the last line of your last post, so it is clear that is not what you meant. But that is how it appears, which goes against the stated design intent for tanking in this game.

Yes, knowing the fights well enough to know when incoming damage will be low enough to allow you to switch oaths safely will make you a greater asset to your raid team - and stance dancing like that is an enjoyable exercise in and of itself. However when learning a fight (or a phase of a fight), there is nothing wrong with a Paladin who doesn't stance dance. I would even posit that a group could succeed at an encounter without stance dancing, but that would be beyond the realm of what I can substantiate. What I can say is that a Paladin who uses their cooldowns effectively and knows how to account for the mechanics of a fight is going to be more valuable than a Paladin who knows how to hold hate in Sword Oath.