Fresh 60 Help.

[Yuni_Queen]

Swapping from shield to sword is intuitional. 2 months ago i woudnt dare to drop tank stance on trash pulls or some bosses. Getting used to the class, getting used to the dungeons. It will take some time, but you are gonna feel like it is high time to drop ShO and tanking tankbusters with rampart and awerness... to be like a boss.

[Jpec07]

"Still fairly new to this game, and i'm about to get my Paladin to 60, looking for any advice as to how to get set up for the raids efficiently."

Also......sword oath tanking gets better w/ gear.....so why would you stop doing it if you can do it with lesser gear?

The main reason for switching oaths while tanking is to pump out more damage. Even if you do nothing but RoH in between GB, you're still going to vastly outpace your potential DPS in ShO. We all know this. However, once the PLD and her group are to a certain gear threshold, group DPS is no longer going to be low enough to where it is required for the tank to play so aggressively.

Mind, there certainly isn't anything wrong with an aggressive playstyle like that, and in fact many who play PLD swear by and enjoy the dance. And once you've learned the fight, and once you've gotten used to switching like that when you have a hate lead, there's certainly nothing stopping you. Extra DPS is helpful, but my point is that once you get to the point where you're not trying to make up for an undergeared team, the dance probably isn't necessary.

It is also completely unnecessary in any other content in the game. It can be fun to do, but you shouldn't feel like you need to do it in lower tiers of content.

[Garotte14]

Snip

I agree completely. Very good advice. You definitely don't need to play that way. Even though it can be fun to stance dance and do more damage, it's not at all necessary unless you are on the cutting edge of content in world first races.

[Violette]

snip

Look I don't mean to be a dick, but you by your own admission don't have raiding experience and even when you're not doing world first, doing more DPS to clear faster is always preferable. I.E. swapping to sword oath for the small phases in A5S, doing entire fights in sword oath because you have a ninja or a war pulling, etc.

If you want to raid and be a good raider, you always need to be good at all aspects of your class.
What good is a black mage with a top 1 dummy dps who can't move during a fight?
A healer who can't balance healing and damage?
A tank who only uses RoH because it's the most enmity?

None at all. Being able to stance dance and play your class to it's fullest is something that will never hurt a raid. If you keep making these compromises, that "it'd be nice but not necessary", at what point do you stop being good and start being a burden? If the entire team is okay with being "ehh it's not needed", when do you stop being a raid group and start stagnating?

I'm not arguing that one should ALWAYS TANK IN SWORD OATH (it's fun though), but learning HOW to do it, from tracking enmity, gcd usage, cooldowns needed, etc, without the safety net of 20% damage down and enmity up, is something every raiding tank should know. It's a lot harder to learn how to do this in a fight, than coming in with a broad understanding of how it's done and when it should be done.

[Jpec07]

Look I don't mean to be a dick, but you by your own admission don't have raiding experience and even when you're not doing world first, doing more DPS to clear faster is always preferable. I.E. swapping to sword oath for the small phases in A5S, doing entire fights in sword oath because you have a ninja or a war pulling, etc.

When we're speaking about theory and general raiding concepts, experience is not always necessary. You also do much to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, just because I admitted in another thread that I haven't been in Savage yet. Such an attempt to invalidate my argument by attempting to undermine my credibility is called an ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy, and does not actually address the matter at hand. We're talking in high terms about raiding and raid progression in general, the discussion of which does not hold experience as prerequisite. Suggesting that someone can't talk about raiding concepts because they haven't raided in this game is presumptuous, and quite frankly elitist.

If you want to raid and be a good raider, you always need to be good at all aspects of your class.
What good is a black mage with a top 1 dummy dps who can't move during a fight?
A healer who can't balance healing and damage?
A tank who only uses RoH because it's the most enmity?

Except that when SE balances the fights, their healers don't do damage, and their tanks only do the bare minimum action required to hold enmity. I'll have to find the interview, but the developers balance endgame fights around DPS having certain gear levels to accomplish the fight. Any additional DPS from tanks and healers is nice, but the fights are not balanced around it, and so technically don't require it above a certain gearing threshold.

None at all. Being able to stance dance and play your class to it's fullest is something that will never hurt a raid. If you keep making these compromises, that "it'd be nice but not necessary", at what point do you stop being good and start being a burden? If the entire team is okay with being "ehh it's not needed", when do you stop being a raid group and start stagnating?

I'm not arguing that one should ALWAYS TANK IN SWORD OATH (it's fun though), but learning HOW to do it, from tracking enmity, gcd usage, cooldowns needed, etc, without the safety net of 20% damage down and enmity up, is something every raiding tank should know. It's a lot harder to learn how to do this in a fight, than coming in with a broad understanding of how it's done and when it should be done.

I never said that more DPS didn't help, or that faster clears weren't better, nor that stance dancing isn't fun (I'll agree that it is), nor even that a PLD should be in ShO 110% of the time, even when offtanking (that's just silly). I'm simply saying that the fights aren't designed to require it when the DPS are at a proper gear threshold. Before that, as the developers said in the same interview, yes, a clear will probably require more DPS contribution from tanks and healers, but it's making up for the DPS jobs' low gear.

Mastering a class is always a good idea, and knowing how to maximize your output is also a good idea. But the game is not designed to make stance dancing a necessity. It's a good skill to learn, I agree, but I would not suggest it to someone new to tanking until they've learned and are comfortable with the basics.

EDIT: Here's the link to the interview.

[Violette]

When we're speaking about theory and general raiding concepts, experience is not always necessary. You also do much to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, just because I admitted in another thread that I haven't been in Savage yet. Such an attempt to invalidate my argument by attempting to undermine my credibility is called an ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy, and does not actually address the matter at hand. We're talking in high terms about raiding and raid progression in general, the discussion of which does not hold experience as prerequisite. Suggesting that someone can't talk about raiding concepts because they haven't raided in this game is presumptuous, and quite frankly elitist.

And?

I explained why your lack of experience was the issue, what perspective you were missing.
But let's go back and explain exactly WHAT caused the comment:

However, once the PLD and her group are to a certain gear threshold, group DPS is no longer going to be low enough to where it is required for the tank to play so aggressively.

That's a lovely dream there. "As gear increases, dps will increase". Yeah...............no.
If you ever pug A5S, you'll find that this might be true if you're lucky. Gear will increase someone's dps SLIGHTLY. I've seen dps with vastly different ilvl's pull similar numbers (on the low end of the scale). I've seen healers out dps dps (and dps then get kicked). Even in raid groups, you will still people geared to the 9's doing the bare minimum dps. (Not for long though) So it's a lovely idea, but you're relying on the idea that all raiders are skilled... nope. Quite often, you will have to put yourself out there and play to the best of your abilities to pass simple things. Like faust. I've seen groups with 230 weapons fail hummelfaust.

Extra DPS is helpful, but my point is that once you get to the point where you're not trying to make up for an undergeared team, the dance probably isn't necessary.

You can always make up for undergeared teams with time. You cannot stop trying to make up for underskilled or underachieving party members. Complacency leads to being stuck on A3S for 6 months.

It is also completely unnecessary in any other content in the game. It can be fun to do, but you shouldn't feel like you need to do it in lower tiers of content.

Just gonna answer this with ANOTHER QUOTE

Still fairly new to this game, and i'm about to get my Paladin to 60, looking for any advice as to how to get set up for the raids efficiently.

I have a history with MMO's: Dark Age of Camelot, WoW for 6 years, Aion, Vindictus and a few other randoms. With that being said, i'm taking all advice on end game tanking.

You also do much to assume that I don't know what I'm talking about, just because I admitted in another thread that I haven't been in Savage yet.We're talking in high terms about raiding and raid progression in general, the discussion of which does not hold experience as prerequisite. Suggesting that someone can't talk about raiding concepts because they haven't raided in this game is presumptuous, and quite frankly elitist.

See previous quote from OP.

Talk about raiding concepts all you like, but let's talk about what it is to raid, and to raid on curve.
I'll start with my own story of T13.

Week 1 of T13: Spirits are high, watching the MT (me) getting stomped is funny the first few times. Don't make it much past phase 1 because we're tired from clearing T12 for the first time, next few nights are just trying different things, getting used to positions.
Week 2: Much the same, some phase 2 but the balls are giving us trouble.
Week 3: Balls are not so much an issue, but the second add is having an aggro issue, getting the whm to stop medica II'ing as it spawns helps.
Week 4: Clearing second add consistently just feeling out stuff. We only raided 6hours a week, and a little bit of time is still spent not stuffing up T11/T12.
Week 5: Get up to third add, all dps now have the 130 weapon. Nailing phase 1 and most of phase 2. Get to the first divebombs.
Week 6: Start working on the adds/divebomb phase.
Week 7-11: Working on divebomb phase get through it occasionally but not consistently. Spirits get pretty low during this time. Everyone has full 130ish by now, due to pity drops coming out/hunts for upgrade items.
Week 12: We're trying all sorts of things to get through adds and the final phase, but it's not working. Group disbands.

Was it anyone's fault? No. Would having turned around and said "Oi DPS you need to do MORE DPS there's no EXCUSE" have helped? Of course not. But that feeling of "shit, why can't we get this" "what can I do to edge across the line" "how can I play better?", is not something you get by "understanding raid theory". Get in there, give it a shot. Wipe at 5%,4%,3%,2%, 1% and tell me you're not going to look at yourself and go "what can I do better next time?" "how can I get us across the line?" "how can we clear this?"

Raiding is a team activity, and in a team activity you need to always pull your weight. Turning around and going "well dps, you should be doing more DPS! Tank and healer dps isn't needed" is a great way to get yourself kicked. I'm aware of the interview about raid design, and even if they said "raids are designed around x,y,z", raiding on curve requires doing more than the bare minimum to pass. If you want to enter after full 230 gear, that's your choice. But that's a vastly different fight to the one's I've been progressing on. And I'm not saying you can't discuss raid theory (be my guest), I'm saying you if you aren't in there, experiencing wipe after wipe and trying to do better each time, you don't have the experience to be giving advice on raiding (two different things). If you get in there, with 7 other people and they're all doing what is technically required, but you're not passing, what are you doing to do?

Keep doing the bare minimum because "I'm doing my job, and that's all I gotta do"? Because that's what 7 other's are doing as well, and it's not working.
Or will you try something, like swapping stances for a bit because maybe, just maybe, that little extra damage will get you across the line?

[Yuni_Queen]

"shit, why can't we get this" "what can I do to edge across the line" "how can I play better?"

I am trying to clear Seph Ex for some time now. i have seen enrage 3 times, i am doing it only through PUGs, due to lack of possibility to be in a static (chaotic playing times)(That's also the reason why i never managed to make it farer than A2S :P Coil of Bahamut was made only by PUG teams with undersized party and only a couple of times)

Since i play as tank, prefer as OT, my job is not hard, and there is little place to make some mistakes. Just know the fight.

BUT
Even when i do my best, push those 950 dps i still can't clear it.
Did i ever think "Can i do better?"? yes, during 2nd Phase, what cooldowns should i use on towers, which cooldowns healers would like me to use on adds or mentioned towers.

But as a dps, i am doing all i can, and i never said to myself: "My dps are shit, i can do better", since i can't.
Does it help. No. If you have doubts for your dps, go try some on training dummy, but not everyone and not always, should have the feeling they can do better. Since they may only lower their enthusiasm/break rotations that were good... and leave the party faster "we won't clear it... .___."

Just a digression, rest is agreed.
The fact i don't have a static, doesn't mean i don't have raid progress experience >.>

[Ragnorak]

This is actually optional now, save maybe in Savage progression, if you're undergeared. The game has been designed to make Sword Oath more difficult to tank in, and Shield Oath easier.

Mmmm Idk how it is on other servers but on Gilgamesh this is not an option. A tank that can't stance dance comfortably (most groups ask for your fflogs , yes even as a tank) doesn't keep statics very long if at all. Even in none savage content(although in those cases fflogs aren't asked for.That goes for MT's and OTs. And to be honest its not hard so it should be something Every tank (main) is able to do imo. Long gone are the days where tanks just sat there and took damage and looked pretty

[Jpec07]

And?

I explained why your lack of experience was the issue, what perspective you were missing.

In an effort to hopefully help discussions on this forum be friendly to all individuals, I'm going to take a minute to go off-topic and explain just what an ad hominem is and why it doesn't work.

There is a difference between saying "my experience raiding has been that this is not the case" and saying "your argument is invalid because you don't have experience." The first is a valid argument that provides additional evidence to advance discussion to a logical conclusion, while the second is an ad hominem that does not in any way address the point being discussed, and instead seeks to invalidate it based on some fact that does not have bearing on the actual argument. One addresses and advances the discussion, while the other debases it.

Think of it logically. "The statement that group DPS will eventually rise to the point where tanks don't need to play beyond the intended design of their jobs is erroneous because the person saying that has never done savage raiding in this game." Do you see why that doesn't work? It doesn't actually address the point. Seeking to derail discussion based on some fact about the other party discussing it doesn't actually answer the problem.

Now for the flip side. "My experience raiding suggests that other party members cannot be relied on to consistently perform adequately, so the statement that group DPS will eventually allow tanks to stop working as hard to put out high numbers is false." Do you see why that one does work by comparison? It actually addresses the point, and introduces more information to the discussion without derailing it.

Targeting any aspect about someone else in an effort to invalidate their statements does nothing to advance discussion, or to arrive at a correct conclusion.

That's a lovely dream there. "As gear increases, dps will increase". Yeah...............no.

If you ever pug A5S, you'll find that this might be true if you're lucky. Gear will increase someone's dps SLIGHTLY. I've seen dps with vastly different ilvl's pull similar numbers (on the low end of the scale). I've seen healers out dps dps (and dps then get kicked). Even in raid groups, you will still people geared to the 9's doing the bare minimum dps. (Not for long though) So it's a lovely idea, but you're relying on the idea that all raiders are skilled... nope. Quite often, you will have to put yourself out there and play to the best of your abilities to pass simple things. Like faust. I've seen groups with 230 weapons fail hummelfaust.

When in a static raid group or team, it absolutely is true. Watching someone go from 220 to 230 average iLvl will see a fairly substantial rise in that person's ability to output damage, just as going from 190-200 did.

When dealing with PUGs, you're right, though. Better gear doesn't mean a better player, just a person who's invested more time into the gearing grind. I, too, have seen characters "geared to the nines" who couldn't play their class/job for crap, and who were completely outclassed by newly-leveled characters. In 3.15, I watched multiple iLvl 210 players die in Void Ark to things like Chuchulainn's Death Vomit Attack (TM), or get hit by the last boss' Petrify. This is universal, and spans just about every facet of collaborative multiplayer online gaming (to add another anecdote, the other night in the Overwatch beta, I kept getting grouped up with level 25+ players who constantly overcommitted, and who refused to coordinate or group up - but then got grouped with a handful of level 5-10 players who destroyed them). Point being that the number someone wears online does not usually correspond to that person's ability, skill, or performance.

You can always make up for undergeared teams with time. You cannot stop trying to make up for underskilled or underachieving party members. Complacency leads to being stuck on A3S for 6 months.

Wouldn't it be better to try to help those party members improve? Obviously this won't work with any kind of PUG, but if that person is in your FC and is part of your static, wouldn't better results come from helping them become a better player (at mechanics, at timing cooldowns, at using rotations, etc.)?

Talk about raiding concepts all you like, but let's talk about what it is to raid, and to raid on curve.
I'll start with my own story of T13.

Week 1 of T13: Spirits are high, watching the MT (me) getting stomped is funny the first few times. Don't make it much past phase 1 because we're tired from clearing T12 for the first time, next few nights are just trying different things, getting used to positions.
Week 2: Much the same, some phase 2 but the balls are giving us trouble.
Week 3: Balls are not so much an issue, but the second add is having an aggro issue, getting the whm to stop medica II'ing as it spawns helps.
Week 4: Clearing second add consistently just feeling out stuff. We only raided 6hours a week, and a little bit of time is still spent not stuffing up T11/T12.
Week 5: Get up to third add, all dps now have the 130 weapon. Nailing phase 1 and most of phase 2. Get to the first divebombs.
Week 6: Start working on the adds/divebomb phase.
Week 7-11: Working on divebomb phase get through it occasionally but not consistently. Spirits get pretty low during this time. Everyone has full 130ish by now, due to pity drops coming out/hunts for upgrade items.
Week 12: We're trying all sorts of things to get through adds and the final phase, but it's not working. Group disbands.

Was it anyone's fault? No. Would having turned around and said "Oi DPS you need to do MORE DPS there's no EXCUSE" have helped? Of course not. But that feeling of "shit, why can't we get this" "what can I do to edge across the line" "how can I play better?", is not something you get by "understanding raid theory". Get in there, give it a shot. Wipe at 5%,4%,3%,2%, 1% and tell me you're not going to look at yourself and go "what can I do better next time?" "how can I get us across the line?" "how can we clear this?"

Raiding is a team activity, and in a team activity you need to always pull your weight. Turning around and going "well dps, you should be doing more DPS! Tank and healer dps isn't needed" is a great way to get yourself kicked. I'm aware of the interview about raid design, and even if they said "raids are designed around x,y,z", raiding on curve requires doing more than the bare minimum to pass. If you want to enter after full 230 gear, that's your choice. But that's a vastly different fight to the one's I've been progressing on. And I'm not saying you can't discuss raid theory (be my guest), I'm saying you if you aren't in there, experiencing wipe after wipe and trying to do better each time, you don't have the experience to be giving advice on raiding (two different things). If you get in there, with 7 other people and they're all doing what is technically required, but you're not passing, what are you doing to do?

Keep doing the bare minimum because "I'm doing my job, and that's all I gotta do"? Because that's what 7 other's are doing as well, and it's not working.
Or will you try something, like swapping stances for a bit because maybe, just maybe, that little extra damage will get you across the line?

While a very great amount of this consists of yet more ad hominem, I feel like it's finally starting to address the actual point. You are speaking as if I have never raided at all, when that is simply not the case. I know what it is to raid. I know what it is to try with your friends to challenge a boss, and to wipe at a fraction of a percent consistently for weeks on end. I know what it is to feel that pressure, to ask what more can be done. And yes, in situations like that, switching stances for a few seconds here and there, or letting the RoH debuff drop so you can push full RA combos can be really helpful, and might just give you that edge you need.

I never once said stance dancing was bad, I just said it wasn't necessary for a new tank to do. What I am replying to, and debating against, is this:

Learn to get comfortable tanking in Sword Oath

The advice given here doesn't talk about the nuances involved, or the fact that your healers will probably hate you if you stay in Sword Oath all the time (or even that you shouldn't stay in Sword Oath all the time). The statement here seems to suggest 100% Sword Oath usage, which will make things unnecessarily difficult, and could result in pulling nightmares, and turns every tankbuster into a nail-biter. Was that what you meant? No. You've elaborated your point in the last line of your last post, so it is clear that is not what you meant. But that is how it appears, which goes against the stated design intent for tanking in this game.

Yes, knowing the fights well enough to know when incoming damage will be low enough to allow you to switch oaths safely will make you a greater asset to your raid team - and stance dancing like that is an enjoyable exercise in and of itself. However when learning a fight (or a phase of a fight), there is nothing wrong with a Paladin who doesn't stance dance. I would even posit that a group could succeed at an encounter without stance dancing, but that would be beyond the realm of what I can substantiate. What I can say is that a Paladin who uses their cooldowns effectively and knows how to account for the mechanics of a fight is going to be more valuable than a Paladin who knows how to hold hate in Sword Oath.

[ashwich]

I agree with Jpec, in general, it shouldn't be a requirement to stance dance.

If you dig into it, it always depends on a couple of things, the encounter and your healers. What the community seems to miss quite a bit, is it isn't always about whether you can survive in SwO, it's also how much work you're trading between your dps and your healer's. Remember those ramparts you're using? yea well ShO is equivalent to 100% rampart uptime.

If your healer says okay do this in SwO, I'll heal you more and do dmg no problem, sure go for it. All I'm saying, is that the stance dance thing isn't black and white, unlike for example... should a bard dps with WM turned on.