Raiding loot suggestion - Unrestricted Pages

[Jynx]

The difference is more than terminology.

Look they are always going to find some way to block your character progression it's just how they decide to dress it up.

1.0 was in flat EXP gains

2.0 Replaced a exp wall with tomestone and loot lockouts.

People don't want to be told they can't keep progressing. It's a primal thing look at how balls popular things like the hunt are where regardless of how hard/long the grind is as long as it gave the promise of progression without giving the player a ultimatum that blocked them from further progression. I just wish they would drop the smoke and mirrors act about hiding the grind and give us more engaging systems instead of the bland gear treadmill.

I'd rather be blocked in progression by the amount of choices I have than to be stone walled but that's just me.

[alimdia]

Maybe have the restriction that you need at least 2 people that haven't 'cleared' that week to get pages.

[Cetonis]

Whatever the solution is, there's an important point here that the current lockout system is the number one problem with small server raiding. When you have a limited pool of willing and capable raiders, forcing them to commit to one and only one group makes life incredibly hard for the folk who lose at the game of musical chairs around the time an even patch hits, or for groups who lose a member somewhere along the way in progression.

Most to all of the known good players will have a group of some sort, and since subbing across groups is actively punished, there's nowhere to turn if you lose a member, just have someone out for a week, or need to build a group, other than the pool of random unknowns who have never been presented with anything harder than Chrysalis. There are good folk to be found there, but in the ensuing weeks you simply can't raid because no subs. This also makes it hard for groups that do have eight to kick a terrible member as soon as they should, leading to more attrition on top. And every time a player or group waves the white flag and transfers away from small server lockout hell, the situation gets that much worse for everyone else.

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

I don't think a wacky change to the page system is necessarily the fix; something as simple as not-removing chests anymore would be a start, or just remove 1 chest for 5+ repeaters and zero otherwise. If SE wanted to be more aggressive they could always have 2 chests and add a VA-style "one drop from all of savage per week" thing, either keeping books as they are or upping the gear prices from them. Or any mix, match, in between, something. Even removing lockouts in odd patches a la 2.5 Final Coil would be a boon, and also fairly harmless so long as folk still need to clear one turn to unlock the next.

[whythehate]

Personally I would love it if we could get pages every run, my static started late. Currently progress a6s but raiding has been rather a problem last 2 weeks.

Got my first item this week, now if I want the pieces I need just for my main job it will take me 18 weeks to gear up from 1 floor.

Considering how restricted we are with lore, it would be nice if I could gear up alt jobs aswell.

I'll helped several pfs with a5s clears, which offers me no reward. Outside of savage there's nothing really left to do anyway.

[Altijacek]

I wonder if maybe the first clear everyone gets a page, after that you have to roll on it. If you are clearing with somebody that hasn't cleared that week and you have, then that person gets a page and you get to roll on it against others that have cleared, or guarantee yourself a page if you're helping a 7/8 group. This would make it so that people are willing to pug and help teach, and get rewarded by it. And it would be a lot of work, not necessarily easily farmable. If a group wanted to farm pages they can, but it would take a clear for the first page, then 8 more clears for everyone to just get one page, and 25 in one week of a floor just to get 4 pages per member. For the harder floors with 8 pages that's 57 clears in a week. Not awful, but realistically these fights are difficult and long and most groups will not consistently clear that many times and will stick to 6-10 lockouts a week.

[enthauptet]

Most to all of the known good players will have a group of some sort, and since subbing across groups is actively punished, there's nowhere to turn if you lose a member, just have someone out for a week, or need to build a group, other than the pool of random unknowns who have never been presented with anything harder than Chrysalis. There are good folk to be found there, but in the ensuing weeks you simply can't raid because no subs. This also makes it hard for groups that do have eight to kick a terrible member as soon as they should, leading to more attrition on top. And every time a player or group waves the white flag and transfers away from small server lockout hell, the situation gets that much worse for everyone else.

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

I don't think a wacky change to the page system is necessarily the fix; something as simple as not-removing chests anymore would be a start, or just remove 1 chest for 5+ repeaters and zero otherwise. If SE wanted to be more aggressive they could always have 2 chests and add a VA-style "one drop from all of savage per week" thing, either keeping books as they are or upping the gear prices from them. Or any mix, match, in between, something. Even removing lockouts in odd patches a la 2.5 Final Coil would be a boon, and also fairly harmless so long as folk still need to clear one turn to unlock the next.

If you could get 2 chests with 1 or 2 cleared people it would help a lot IMO especially on my server where trying to find (competent or any willing) people to fill up your group is seemingly impossible. If we could get some mix-n-match from other groups it would help a lot.

[Animarelic]

Yoshi's calculation that the small server exodus was caused by the difficulty of Gordias was well off the mark. Sure, there were groups stuck on it, but the real issue is the lockout. If subbing or re-running turns wasn't punished - even if it's not particularly rewarded - smaller servers could make do by building a raid community where groups help each other out without feeling like they're punishing members of one group or another.

The matter is how to address time and incentive. The exodus wasn't just caused by the difficulty of Gordias it was the lack of incentive to help players who weren't up to par. Even on smaller servers where the majority of the population doesn't raid, want to raid or are trying to get into it, even if you gave more loot options there's still the time and effort vs rewards. EX primals are a good example of how the player base will treat raiding even if they eased up the loot restrictions.

Players will still be judged based on experience meaning the same incentive still applies. The Devs probably figured even if they ease up on loot strict PF's will still be in place which will be even more intimidating to new players. Trying to make the content "Farmable" will only apply to people who already farm it just like EX Primals. I don't see the raid scene improving much because why join a PF in your spare time if you can just farm it and move on?

[Cetonis]

The matter is how to address time and incentive. The exodus wasn't just caused by the difficulty of Gordias it was the lack of incentive to help players who weren't up to par. Even on smaller servers where the majority of the population doesn't raid, want to raid or are trying to get into it, even if you gave more loot options there's still the time and effort vs rewards. EX primals are a good example of how the player base will treat raiding even if they eased up the loot restrictions.

Players will still be judged based on experience meaning the same incentive still applies. The Devs probably figured even if they ease up on loot strict PF's will still be in place which will be even more intimidating to new players. Trying to make the content "Farmable" will only apply to people who already farm it just like EX Primals. I don't see the raid scene improving much because why join a PF in your spare time if you can just farm it and move on?

The PF pug scene is a whole other matter, and probably a lost cause on any smaller server for self-fulfilling prophecy reasons.

What I'm talking about is static attrition - groups that lose a member (or even just have one go on vacation for a week) just shouldn't be as immediately screwed as they are right now. It ought to be plausible to get by with subs for a bit until you find a promising permanent fill. Right now it's not - because most any known-decent player will have a group or be trying to build one (since the PF doesn't work), and people don't want to take chests away from their static-mates.

Farm-ability can be argued any which way, but at minimum I think helping other groups out should at least be an option that's available to people, as opposed to being taken straight off the table by the chest penalty. Would everyone always be rainbows and sunshine and give out their time like candy on Halloween? Of course not; but it's not like people don't exist that like to sub for fun, or as an occasional favor or such. They just aren't allowed to right now.

[FoxyAreku]

Yes so hardcore raiders can farm and get all their best in slots in less than a day.

This is a terrible idea.

it would also make the world first clears much less impressive, as they would just clear the first floor 12 or so times to get all the stuff they need and be way higher item level for the rest of it...

[Morzy]

I dont think this would work out well. Ppl will get bored of raid even faster than they already r n i like my friends occupied so.i dont lose em.