Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

[RiceisNice]

Balance is the main reason I would assume.

Classes that have similar core mechanics = easier to balance.

Melee all have a Slashing/Blunt/Piercing buff, long DoT, short DoT, some sort of buff they have to maintain (Huton/GL/Blood)...

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.


Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

[Altena]

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.

Hmm that quite heavily depends on your definition of "different".

I do agree that how the fundamental mechanics of two classes can be similar, yet perform very differently in the way it's managed. I have to be of the opinion however, that BRD and MCH are in this boat as well, as I do feel like they play quite differently, if you consider say a MNK and DRG, or a PLD and DRK play differently. Both of these combos fill the same role, both have their niche differences in how they play, however both have the same backbones of the roles with their own touch of spice.

I mean you could argue that BRD and MCH "play" quite differently when you look at it - the only thing that truly makes them similar is that they are rooted during casts (WM/GB). Would you argue that both MCH and BRD play like a BLM? I wouldn't..

I mean, BRD is based around getting procs based on your crit DoT's, so it shines when you have the opportunity to multi-dot. These procs are also off-GCD so you are stuck with trying to weave them in between HS.

MCH however is about procs with on-GCD skills. In addition to this they have a slightly higher freedom of movement (due to their procs being instant casts), plus a freebie forced-trigger that they can save for high mobility (Ammo). Yes BRD has this freedom of movement in the form of Straighter Shot but that is much less frequent than MCH procs. They can also hold onto procs for a short time if they feel they are required to move in the near future. In addition to this, their buffs are based on turret placement, and not AoE around the player - but AoE around the turrent. So MCH has the freedom of placing turrets in strategic locations..

Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

I started typing before reading this part of your post.. I kind of already mentioned this in the section above so I won't go too much further into it.

I don't disagree that WM is misplaced on BRD.. It most definitely feels awkward and clunky, but the freedom of movement that 2.x BRD had was quite literally broken at end game.

When I first tried out MCH, I definitely found it played to similarly to BRD. My complaint to one of my friends was quite literally "BRD got a new glamour and a gun" (admittedly I haven't bothered levelling it beyond mid 40's, but we have a solid MCH friend/raid member, so I am not unfamiliar with it). However after playing BRD at 60, and raiding/speaking with a solid MCH I can see some pretty glaring differences in the jobs . They are there to fill the same role, yes, so their roles are certainly similar - however they play quite differently at end game. Mostly because WM just isn't suited for BRD and is a tacked on skill.

As far as BLM/SMN comparisons are concerned, I am not overly familiar with either as I have never really been a caster kind of player, however both have their strengths and weaknesses.. I mean BLM, if allowed to turret on a single target is much more preferred than a SMN, but when a SMN is given the chance to multi-dot or there is more movement than is ideal for a BLM then SMN of course comes out ahead.. BLM/SMN are very different in my eyes though - so it's tough to compare (which is why comparing how balanced they are is actually difficult).

So end-note, I can't agree that BRD and MCH are "too similar" at end game moreso than other classes. They play and feel quite different, despite having similarities in my opinion..

I would even argue that PLD and DRK are closer to a copy&paste than BRD and MCH.

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

Eh I commented on turrets above.. They have *some* degree of utility, over and above BRD's songs - mostly because of freedom of placement. (Can place it at the boss, or further back for the healers etc depending if TP/MP is needed). Of course this point is moot if it's simply damage.. However they are also weaker than BRD songs, no? I think this is ok, especially considering they have Hypercharge which is pretty damn good.

Yeah, while this wasn't true at Heavensward's release, Paladins and Dark Knights no longer share a stance. Grit is rightfully weaker than Shield Oath, since Grit is -20% damage to Shield Oath's -15%. This really has made every Job but Bard and Machinist have different stances mechanically.

Sorry but I can't agree that swapping a couple of numbers makes them different mechanically.

Both reduce damage dealt & damage taken, and both increase enmity. That to me is "the same" when speaking mechanics. Just because one reduces damage dealt more than the other, doesn't mean they perform mechanically different.