Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

[Ashkendor]

I really feel like SE didn't care about Bard this expansion. Little things like WM being almost the same as GB and arguably being a DPS loss when first implemented and WP being almost unusable due to it's long cast time made me think they just slapped it together at the last minute.

It feels a lot better now than it did at the beginning of the expansion but part of me still thinks they designed the mechanic for MCH then pasted it onto BRD so people wouldn't choose BRD over MCH just to avoid cast times.

You're acting like other classes haven't received significant adjustments though. BLMs Astral Fire and Thundercloud were adjusted, MNKs GL3 was adjusted, PLD received potency boosts and other changes, DRG received potency boosts, AST received massive adjustments to potencies and some of their core mechanics, SMN received a potency boost, TP costs were adjusted across several classes... you can't really say that since Wanderer's Minuet had to be adjusted that BRD is somehow the red-headed stepchild here because many jobs have needed tweaking. I mean, AST was considered basically unplayable in endgame upon release. PLD was considered all but unplayable until we started overgearing Gordias Savage because of the difference in DPS between a PLD and any other tank. Part of introducing new classes and new skills is balancing them through play, and the kind of numbers you need to do that can only be generated by many players over time. Game balance isn't something that just happens; it's an ongoing process.

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

MNK does not use combos. One thing i dislike about NIN n DRG.

Uh... what? Monk uses pretty rigidly enforced combos. o.O

[Moomba33]

You're acting like other classes haven't received significant adjustments though. BLMs Astral Fire and Thundercloud were adjusted, MNKs GL3 was adjusted, PLD received potency boosts and other changes, DRG received potency boosts, AST received massive adjustments to potencies and some of their core mechanics, SMN received a potency boost, TP costs were adjusted across several classes... you can't really say that since Wanderer's Minuet had to be adjusted that BRD is somehow the red-headed stepchild here because many jobs have needed tweaking. I mean, AST was considered basically unplayable in endgame upon release. PLD was considered all but unplayable until we started overgearing Gordias Savage because of the difference in DPS between a PLD and any other tank. Part of introducing new classes and new skills is balancing them through play, and the kind of numbers you need to do that can only be generated by many players over time. Game balance isn't something that just happens; it's an ongoing process.

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

Oh for sure, SE has had to adjust lots of jobs.
But WM in particular feels like a lazy paste job to me. Especially with how terrible the animations were when it was introduced, how it clashes with the Bloodletter proc system, and how badly it slowed down the job in general by causing double weaving to clip your next GCD.
As far as I'm concerned with Heavensward they didn't build on the Bard playstyle so much as they tried to make it like MCH.

[Voltyblast]

As punishment for moving. From a balance perspective Bard had instants so compared to BLM they didn't get punished for moving. To compensate in HW SE made base bard damage lower so for them to be competitive they now have to use WM. The downside is that moving is now bad - like BLM. The same principle applies to MCH,

Simple really.

If I have to get punished for moving, why not just play the BLM at this point? BRD was supposed to be a high mobile dps that had support songs, but right now they're just a weaker version of BLM...so why not play a BLM instead? Infact they get punished for moving too: it's called Ley Lines. However, while Ley Lines was implemented as a High Risk/High Reward mechanic, especially for using Fire and blizzard 4, BLM weren't a mobile class to begin with and so their new mechanic is much better implemented: you either stick for a longer time and do huge dmg, or move and risk to lose your buff and etc. It's a pretty good trade off.

But with BRD and MCH? I mean I honestly wonder why did they have to make them casters to begin with, as they have no real mechanic around their casting times and it only increases their damage: did they REALLY have to completely change BRD this way JUST to make them more balanced? Couldn't they, I don't know, actually improve their damage without this gimmick of having WM? Sure you can only use some skills in GB and WM but that's not a mechanic: that's a lock out. MCH is still better since most of their skills are instant while in GB but again, where are the mechanics? I can use pretty much every skills without them if I wanted except for 2 or 3: the only downside is my damage falling but there's nothing stopping me to use my BRD and MCH without the buffs.

I really loved BRD in ARR and it was my second most played class/job/whatever for the longest time, but right now I just went BLM instead since...well at least I'm an actual caster.

[Laerune]

Its easier to balance when the classes play very similiar, this is one of the reasons why MMORPG these days have carbon copy of classes..

[Caitlyn]

First, I thought BRD and MCH are different.
But in fact, they share the same mechanics for the most part. Many classes share the same mechanics, but BRD and MCH share the most.

Balancing or not, there would be a better way to keep both sides satisfied.
An example:

Machinist:
- No Changes
-> Range-DPS with fast casts and high burst

Bard:
- Remove Wanderers Menuett (but keep skills from WM)
- Add piercing damage-buff
- Increase potency on skills, when both DoTs are up
-> Range-DPS with higher mobility

I think, that most people stop playing Bard because of WM. It just changed the movement of this class from "agile" into "slow".

[Warlyx]

the issue with BRD , iis that SE said that bards will do more dmg in exchange for mobility ...and in the end we got casting times while keeping the same Dps as we have in 2.0

RANDOM NUMBERS out of my "bow":

mnks in 2.0 they did lets say 1000 , brds did 700, now mnks do 2000 and bards 1400....

the % is the same , but brd in 2.0 were the most mobile dps , now? we have to endure casting times.... for what? what we really gained in HW? casting bars and a dispel (that is usefull once in a blue moon , or being a pacification bot) ...yay so fun

if 4.0 doesnt bring anything close to amazing for brds i would reroll or quit , isnt a threat is just how i feel...

[Miah_Dakwhil]

But WM in particular feels like a lazy paste job to me. Especially with how terrible the animations were when it was introduced, how it clashes with the Bloodletter proc system, and how badly it slowed down the job in general by causing double weaving to clip your next GCD.
As far as I'm concerned with Heavensward they didn't build on the Bard playstyle so much as they tried to make it like MCH.

I do feel like it was a paste job.. notice in the official benchmark trailer here at 7:02, you see the bard running behind the scholar and then letting off an Emphiral Arrow without the WM build-up. https://youtu.be/RGOIF_7vuLw?t=7m1s Somewhere along the dev process, and pretty late, they decided that for "balancing reasons" that bard needed to be a stick in the mud caster. I think it was as said earlier, that is was because they aren't able to think of good ways to deal with a mobile DPS, i.e. lazy way out.

[Rufalus]

Obviously there are many differences, but OP is right there are more similarities, they are clearly designed from the same sub-role template. Both are dex-based ranged physical dps, cast time toggle at lv52, TP/MP regen party support, archer/lancer class buffs, an attack that can only be used when enemy is low HP, etc.

I think the way the game is designed will keep forcing jobs to mimic each other. Because each job is assigned a certain party role, their unique skills will always be secondary to the forced requirements of their role. They all need to achieve similar results as other jobs in their category, albeit through slightly different methods.

[Harlow]

I remember before we really knew what the whole "standing still" mechanic was for BRD some people assumed that it would be some kind of stacking buff that just increased damage the longer you stood in one spot. I feel like that would have been so much better than what we got.

[Khalithar]

Having leveled both I can understand how they feel "similar" because of the cast time and having a ranged physical damage weapon. But their playstyles are very different, Mch has RNG and combos, Brd has less rng, an extra dot, etc.

That being said however, while GB/WM are here to stay, I do feel that the complaint that brd/mch both have such a drastic playstyle adjustment that completely changes how they play after 50+ levels is a perfectly valid one.