Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

[Moomba33]

I really feel like SE didn't care about Bard this expansion. Little things like WM being almost the same as GB and arguably being a DPS loss when first implemented and WP being almost unusable due to it's long cast time made me think they just slapped it together at the last minute.

It feels a lot better now than it did at the beginning of the expansion but part of me still thinks they designed the mechanic for MCH then pasted it onto BRD so people wouldn't choose BRD over MCH just to avoid cast times.

[Ashkendor]

I really feel like SE didn't care about Bard this expansion. Little things like WM being almost the same as GB and arguably being a DPS loss when first implemented and WP being almost unusable due to it's long cast time made me think they just slapped it together at the last minute.

It feels a lot better now than it did at the beginning of the expansion but part of me still thinks they designed the mechanic for MCH then pasted it onto BRD so people wouldn't choose BRD over MCH just to avoid cast times.

You're acting like other classes haven't received significant adjustments though. BLMs Astral Fire and Thundercloud were adjusted, MNKs GL3 was adjusted, PLD received potency boosts and other changes, DRG received potency boosts, AST received massive adjustments to potencies and some of their core mechanics, SMN received a potency boost, TP costs were adjusted across several classes... you can't really say that since Wanderer's Minuet had to be adjusted that BRD is somehow the red-headed stepchild here because many jobs have needed tweaking. I mean, AST was considered basically unplayable in endgame upon release. PLD was considered all but unplayable until we started overgearing Gordias Savage because of the difference in DPS between a PLD and any other tank. Part of introducing new classes and new skills is balancing them through play, and the kind of numbers you need to do that can only be generated by many players over time. Game balance isn't something that just happens; it's an ongoing process.

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

MNK does not use combos. One thing i dislike about NIN n DRG.

Uh... what? Monk uses pretty rigidly enforced combos. o.O

[Moomba33]

You're acting like other classes haven't received significant adjustments though. BLMs Astral Fire and Thundercloud were adjusted, MNKs GL3 was adjusted, PLD received potency boosts and other changes, DRG received potency boosts, AST received massive adjustments to potencies and some of their core mechanics, SMN received a potency boost, TP costs were adjusted across several classes... you can't really say that since Wanderer's Minuet had to be adjusted that BRD is somehow the red-headed stepchild here because many jobs have needed tweaking. I mean, AST was considered basically unplayable in endgame upon release. PLD was considered all but unplayable until we started overgearing Gordias Savage because of the difference in DPS between a PLD and any other tank. Part of introducing new classes and new skills is balancing them through play, and the kind of numbers you need to do that can only be generated by many players over time. Game balance isn't something that just happens; it's an ongoing process.

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

Oh for sure, SE has had to adjust lots of jobs.
But WM in particular feels like a lazy paste job to me. Especially with how terrible the animations were when it was introduced, how it clashes with the Bloodletter proc system, and how badly it slowed down the job in general by causing double weaving to clip your next GCD.
As far as I'm concerned with Heavensward they didn't build on the Bard playstyle so much as they tried to make it like MCH.

[Miah_Dakwhil]

But WM in particular feels like a lazy paste job to me. Especially with how terrible the animations were when it was introduced, how it clashes with the Bloodletter proc system, and how badly it slowed down the job in general by causing double weaving to clip your next GCD.
As far as I'm concerned with Heavensward they didn't build on the Bard playstyle so much as they tried to make it like MCH.

I do feel like it was a paste job.. notice in the official benchmark trailer here at 7:02, you see the bard running behind the scholar and then letting off an Emphiral Arrow without the WM build-up. https://youtu.be/RGOIF_7vuLw?t=7m1s Somewhere along the dev process, and pretty late, they decided that for "balancing reasons" that bard needed to be a stick in the mud caster. I think it was as said earlier, that is was because they aren't able to think of good ways to deal with a mobile DPS, i.e. lazy way out.

[RiceisNice]

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

When the introduction of cast times doesn't mix well with BRD's previous gameplay (Specifically, using oGCDs that can have it's cooldown reset), and especially when it's functionally the same as gauss barrel, it definitely feels pasted. I'm sure DRGs/NIN would also feel the same if their 3.x skills were also around chakra stacks, or MNKs got their version of BoTD which gave them a 4th combo hit with random positional that further extends GL3, and an ability takes off half it's duration for instant aoe damage. This is coming from a former 2.x bard main; The two jobs draw so many parallels from each other that all MCH really does different is wildfire. Ammo at this point is an oGCD you slam for dps because it's a dps (and tp) loss otherwise, GB loses it's novelty as an "attachment" when BRD does the exact same thing, and the two otherwise watch for procs, maintain dots and buffs (all of which are independent of comboing)

Having a random derp-bard running around and dropping mechanics on you was annoying as hell.

That's less on the fact that BRD is able to move freely, and more on bad players in general.

Because the ability for ranged to move around freely without restriction and still deal damage was imbalanced. It was easier for Archer/Bard to pretty much ignore mechanics and continue fighting, meanwhile both Blackmage/Summoner and Melee have to do their dance and avoid doing DPS during certain parts. That's why Machinist/Bards get the charge abilities they get to balance it so that they need to be more mindful with enemy AOE effects rather than just run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

And despite that, they'd still consistently do less than casters and melee under ideal circumstances, and especially when the fight is known in-and-out. At this point, "unrestricted movement" is a poor excuse, especially when they've done away with that and BRD/MCH still consistently do less than the actual dps jobs (which then I'd chalk up for them being support-dps or w/e)


In the end, I'm more annoyed with how they handled BRD (the introduction of WM, and it doesn't work well with the job that we had to wait until 3.1 just for them to fix straight shot's proc time), how much they cut out of MCH from what they intially had planned, and just in general the poor planning behind the two jobs (because to this day, I'm still baffled to how they thought a 20% damage increase at the cost of auto attacks was going to lead to a dps increase, when auto attacks made up for roughly 20-25% of their dps at the time). There's no resemblance of a traditional ranged-physical dps anymore; they're all casters to an extent.