Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

[dinnertime]

there is logic behind this? I feel like both lose their uniqueness due to their similarities in skills and how they are played.

Pretty much anything that's a ranged physical DPS or uses DEX as their main damage stat is going to be a DPS+support job.
Healers can go healer or DPS mode, tanks can go tank or DPS mode, melee DPS have some support but they do damage while caster DPS are the nukes (BLM for single-target with very decent AoE and SMN for AoE with very decent single-target) and ranged physical DPS are support jobs.

[Altena]

Balance is the main reason I would assume.

Classes that have similar core mechanics = easier to balance.

Melee all have a Slashing/Blunt/Piercing buff, long DoT, short DoT, some sort of buff they have to maintain (Huton/GL/Blood)...

That being said, I don't disagree with BRD having less mobility than it had in 2.xx, but the WM mechanic (cast bars) makes the class clunky, moreso than Machinist which was built around that mechanic. WM was kind of an afterthought it seems, and to tack it onto a class that's built around off-GCD's and random procs/resets just feels awkward and doesn't mesh well.

I feel like the way around this would be to remove the cast bars, however under WM, give BRD reduced mobility (reduced down to walk speed) during the 1.5s duration that they are firing their arrows. This would allow off-GCD weaves such as Bloodletter, but reduce their mobility. Would make dodging AoE a little trickier but that's what stance dancing is for.

[RiceisNice]

Balance is the main reason I would assume.

Classes that have similar core mechanics = easier to balance.

Melee all have a Slashing/Blunt/Piercing buff, long DoT, short DoT, some sort of buff they have to maintain (Huton/GL/Blood)...

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.


Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

[Altena]

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.

Hmm that quite heavily depends on your definition of "different".

I do agree that how the fundamental mechanics of two classes can be similar, yet perform very differently in the way it's managed. I have to be of the opinion however, that BRD and MCH are in this boat as well, as I do feel like they play quite differently, if you consider say a MNK and DRG, or a PLD and DRK play differently. Both of these combos fill the same role, both have their niche differences in how they play, however both have the same backbones of the roles with their own touch of spice.

I mean you could argue that BRD and MCH "play" quite differently when you look at it - the only thing that truly makes them similar is that they are rooted during casts (WM/GB). Would you argue that both MCH and BRD play like a BLM? I wouldn't..

I mean, BRD is based around getting procs based on your crit DoT's, so it shines when you have the opportunity to multi-dot. These procs are also off-GCD so you are stuck with trying to weave them in between HS.

MCH however is about procs with on-GCD skills. In addition to this they have a slightly higher freedom of movement (due to their procs being instant casts), plus a freebie forced-trigger that they can save for high mobility (Ammo). Yes BRD has this freedom of movement in the form of Straighter Shot but that is much less frequent than MCH procs. They can also hold onto procs for a short time if they feel they are required to move in the near future. In addition to this, their buffs are based on turret placement, and not AoE around the player - but AoE around the turrent. So MCH has the freedom of placing turrets in strategic locations..

Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

I started typing before reading this part of your post.. I kind of already mentioned this in the section above so I won't go too much further into it.

I don't disagree that WM is misplaced on BRD.. It most definitely feels awkward and clunky, but the freedom of movement that 2.x BRD had was quite literally broken at end game.

When I first tried out MCH, I definitely found it played to similarly to BRD. My complaint to one of my friends was quite literally "BRD got a new glamour and a gun" (admittedly I haven't bothered levelling it beyond mid 40's, but we have a solid MCH friend/raid member, so I am not unfamiliar with it). However after playing BRD at 60, and raiding/speaking with a solid MCH I can see some pretty glaring differences in the jobs . They are there to fill the same role, yes, so their roles are certainly similar - however they play quite differently at end game. Mostly because WM just isn't suited for BRD and is a tacked on skill.

As far as BLM/SMN comparisons are concerned, I am not overly familiar with either as I have never really been a caster kind of player, however both have their strengths and weaknesses.. I mean BLM, if allowed to turret on a single target is much more preferred than a SMN, but when a SMN is given the chance to multi-dot or there is more movement than is ideal for a BLM then SMN of course comes out ahead.. BLM/SMN are very different in my eyes though - so it's tough to compare (which is why comparing how balanced they are is actually difficult).

So end-note, I can't agree that BRD and MCH are "too similar" at end game moreso than other classes. They play and feel quite different, despite having similarities in my opinion..

I would even argue that PLD and DRK are closer to a copy&paste than BRD and MCH.

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

Eh I commented on turrets above.. They have *some* degree of utility, over and above BRD's songs - mostly because of freedom of placement. (Can place it at the boss, or further back for the healers etc depending if TP/MP is needed). Of course this point is moot if it's simply damage.. However they are also weaker than BRD songs, no? I think this is ok, especially considering they have Hypercharge which is pretty damn good.

Yeah, while this wasn't true at Heavensward's release, Paladins and Dark Knights no longer share a stance. Grit is rightfully weaker than Shield Oath, since Grit is -20% damage to Shield Oath's -15%. This really has made every Job but Bard and Machinist have different stances mechanically.

Sorry but I can't agree that swapping a couple of numbers makes them different mechanically.

Both reduce damage dealt & damage taken, and both increase enmity. That to me is "the same" when speaking mechanics. Just because one reduces damage dealt more than the other, doesn't mean they perform mechanically different.

[Averax]

BRD and MCH are the same?

I didn't notice, as i was focused more on WHM vs. WHM lite edition (Also known as AST)

[MagiusNecros]

Grit and Shield Oath are the essential same ability. Slight alteration on numbers doesn't mean a damn thing.

The thing with Bard and Machinist though is that Yoshi is so in love with BLM he thought BRD/MCH should get a new playstyle based around an ability that turns them into a wannabe BLM with party support skills.

[RiceisNice]

I'm on phone so I can't quote properly, so excuse the formatting.

-I already mentioned in a mnk drg example that while they share the similiar execution in combos, they have differing layers on top of it. Drgs have botd which functions differently from what mnk or nin has to do.

- drk has their management of dark arts and mana, while paladin uses their mama for heals, and a more proactive mitigation than drk through Shelton. You can't say that pld has something consistent like dark arts in their gameplay.

- I'm not comparing mch or brd to Blm; I'm comparing mch to brd. The two really doesn't do enough to separate the two, mostly because of mechanics that aren't fleshed out. When all is said and done, ammo is a straight potency boost with tp and proc, but procs are not exclusive to mch since brd has it as well. The lowered cooldown and attached potency boost makes it a loss to even hold onto it, at that point it's another oGCD skill to slam.

[RiceisNice]

- there is very little strategy to turret placement. If you place it on the center of almost any boss arena, the turret will always be within both attacking and regen range.

- you say you only see the differences, but when you extensively play both classes, you start to feel the extremely similiar execution with managing the same mechanics of dots and buffs. Likewise with your comment of Blm and smn. Less about heir weakness, more on their actual gameplay

[Pomelo]

I like Minuet, but that's probably because I live in some sort of deluded world where SE are slowly pushing Bard towards an entirely support agenda...more songs...more stackable songs please *sob*

Iron Jaws = SASSY <3

[Altena]

Rice, I won't write a long winded response because honestly I can't be bothered..

I can't agree with you, but that's totally fine. I also don't have extensive experience on playing MCH at end game.
I also can't agree that turret position is completely irrelevant, especially on the later fights (such as A7S & A8S). Both arenas are quite large, and both fights involve quite a bit of movement.
Our MCH actually requested not to handle the physical DPS jail in A7S due to having to resummon his turret. However like I said earlier, my knowledge on EG MCH is 2nd hand information.

Another comment from the MCH was that they hate BRD as it feels clunky and horrible to play compared to MCH.. To me, that opinion shares the idea that their overall playstyle is considerably different (as was my opinion without this input).

At least to a point - as like I stated earlier, my opinion is of that most jobs filling the same roles have similar backbones.

Also your comparison of PLD and DRK makes me both laugh and cry.. Especially considering you are arguing that BRD and MCH are too similar.. Sorry but I definitely can't agree with you on this. DRK and PLD are even more similar than BRD and MCH if you wish to argue that point. Dark Arts is barely even a mechanic. "Pop this buff to chew mana to make these 3-4 skills stronger, but generally you won't use these 3-4 skills without DA anyway"... I mean what do you even use DA on, aside from C&S, DM and SE? Could argue Power Slash is ok as well (hence the "3-4"), but that's honestly about it..

It's more of an annoyance than anything else. They might as well have tacked the MP cost onto the skills and done away with it, as it adds very little to the class in terms of gameplay..