Question, why does Bard and Machinist share the same core mechanic?

[dinnertime]

there is logic behind this? I feel like both lose their uniqueness due to their similarities in skills and how they are played.

Pretty much anything that's a ranged physical DPS or uses DEX as their main damage stat is going to be a DPS+support job.
Healers can go healer or DPS mode, tanks can go tank or DPS mode, melee DPS have some support but they do damage while caster DPS are the nukes (BLM for single-target with very decent AoE and SMN for AoE with very decent single-target) and ranged physical DPS are support jobs.

[RiceisNice]

I dunno, I don't find that WM feels "pasted on" but I'm not a bard main either so take that as you will. I think MCH is in a better place overall for various reasons, but BRD isn't bad off at all. Maybe there will be further adjustments? Who knows.

When the introduction of cast times doesn't mix well with BRD's previous gameplay (Specifically, using oGCDs that can have it's cooldown reset), and especially when it's functionally the same as gauss barrel, it definitely feels pasted. I'm sure DRGs/NIN would also feel the same if their 3.x skills were also around chakra stacks, or MNKs got their version of BoTD which gave them a 4th combo hit with random positional that further extends GL3, and an ability takes off half it's duration for instant aoe damage. This is coming from a former 2.x bard main; The two jobs draw so many parallels from each other that all MCH really does different is wildfire. Ammo at this point is an oGCD you slam for dps because it's a dps (and tp) loss otherwise, GB loses it's novelty as an "attachment" when BRD does the exact same thing, and the two otherwise watch for procs, maintain dots and buffs (all of which are independent of comboing)

Having a random derp-bard running around and dropping mechanics on you was annoying as hell.

That's less on the fact that BRD is able to move freely, and more on bad players in general.

Because the ability for ranged to move around freely without restriction and still deal damage was imbalanced. It was easier for Archer/Bard to pretty much ignore mechanics and continue fighting, meanwhile both Blackmage/Summoner and Melee have to do their dance and avoid doing DPS during certain parts. That's why Machinist/Bards get the charge abilities they get to balance it so that they need to be more mindful with enemy AOE effects rather than just run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

And despite that, they'd still consistently do less than casters and melee under ideal circumstances, and especially when the fight is known in-and-out. At this point, "unrestricted movement" is a poor excuse, especially when they've done away with that and BRD/MCH still consistently do less than the actual dps jobs (which then I'd chalk up for them being support-dps or w/e)


In the end, I'm more annoyed with how they handled BRD (the introduction of WM, and it doesn't work well with the job that we had to wait until 3.1 just for them to fix straight shot's proc time), how much they cut out of MCH from what they intially had planned, and just in general the poor planning behind the two jobs (because to this day, I'm still baffled to how they thought a 20% damage increase at the cost of auto attacks was going to lead to a dps increase, when auto attacks made up for roughly 20-25% of their dps at the time). There's no resemblance of a traditional ranged-physical dps anymore; they're all casters to an extent.

[Altena]

Balance is the main reason I would assume.

Classes that have similar core mechanics = easier to balance.

Melee all have a Slashing/Blunt/Piercing buff, long DoT, short DoT, some sort of buff they have to maintain (Huton/GL/Blood)...

That being said, I don't disagree with BRD having less mobility than it had in 2.xx, but the WM mechanic (cast bars) makes the class clunky, moreso than Machinist which was built around that mechanic. WM was kind of an afterthought it seems, and to tack it onto a class that's built around off-GCD's and random procs/resets just feels awkward and doesn't mesh well.

I feel like the way around this would be to remove the cast bars, however under WM, give BRD reduced mobility (reduced down to walk speed) during the 1.5s duration that they are firing their arrows. This would allow off-GCD weaves such as Bloodletter, but reduce their mobility. Would make dodging AoE a little trickier but that's what stance dancing is for.

[RiceisNice]

Balance is the main reason I would assume.

Classes that have similar core mechanics = easier to balance.

Melee all have a Slashing/Blunt/Piercing buff, long DoT, short DoT, some sort of buff they have to maintain (Huton/GL/Blood)...

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.


Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

[Averax]

BRD and MCH are the same?

I didn't notice, as i was focused more on WHM vs. WHM lite edition (Also known as AST)

[MiniPrinny]

Its pretty much like if they'd given warriors sword oath at 52 instead of their own unique stance. The classes would play different but its still bullshit laziness.

Hey everyone else gets their own stance but not bards and mechs, you guys gotta share.

Yeah, while this wasn't true at Heavensward's release, Paladins and Dark Knights no longer share a stance. Grit is rightfully weaker than Shield Oath, since Grit is -20% damage to Shield Oath's -15%. This really has made every Job but Bard and Machinist have different stances mechanically.

Yeah, I do believe that many other jobs abilities were not very well thought out and/or rushed. It feels like some of the new abilities felt like filler ... that they needed an ability for the sake of having 5 per job and I think that it shows. Granted, some jobs (like SMN and WHM) were improved. But the rest were just, eh.

This was true back in 2.0 as well, just look at Scholar and Paladin's leveling list. And why, after Ninja was released, they didn't give Arcanist an actual heal worth having on a damage dealer, like Second Wind, and made Physick into something Scholar got at 30. Just crazy that we haven't gotten some revisions by this point.

Its easier to balance when the classes play very similar, this is one of the reasons why MMORPG these days have carbon copy of classes..

This is a bit of an interesting thought. Similarity while it can be useful for balancing, also isn't in my experience, the best option, especially in games that will eventually have who knows how many. FFXI ended with 22, FFXIV could reach or eclipse that number, or not. In cases like this, its often better to actually make classes radically different for identifiable mechanics, like how Machinist has pseudo-combos, how Monk can mix and match their combos, and Dragoon's randomized fourth combo. Likewise, it's important to make classes have different things they bring to the party, you can't compare Rage of Halone to Delirium for example, they both have greatly differing effects and uses, incomparable effects and abilities like these are healthy for a game, because the more you have, the more combinations you can make to find balance for even the weakest Jobs mathematically.

[Altena]

Normally this isn't a problem. Infact, the management of some of those things are why the melee plays different from each other; MNK requires constant uptime and free-flowing combos, DRG has two combos and oGCDs with animation lock, NIN has ninjitsu uptime. 3.x expands upon this by giving MNK chakra stacks for their downtime, DRG has BotD which is a beast of it's own, and NIN got...idk. But at the very least, while they share the same concepts (maintaining uptime of buffs/dots), the execution of it is different from each other, l which I really don't feel it's the case for BRD/MCH.

Hmm that quite heavily depends on your definition of "different".

I do agree that how the fundamental mechanics of two classes can be similar, yet perform very differently in the way it's managed. I have to be of the opinion however, that BRD and MCH are in this boat as well, as I do feel like they play quite differently, if you consider say a MNK and DRG, or a PLD and DRK play differently. Both of these combos fill the same role, both have their niche differences in how they play, however both have the same backbones of the roles with their own touch of spice.

I mean you could argue that BRD and MCH "play" quite differently when you look at it - the only thing that truly makes them similar is that they are rooted during casts (WM/GB). Would you argue that both MCH and BRD play like a BLM? I wouldn't..

I mean, BRD is based around getting procs based on your crit DoT's, so it shines when you have the opportunity to multi-dot. These procs are also off-GCD so you are stuck with trying to weave them in between HS.

MCH however is about procs with on-GCD skills. In addition to this they have a slightly higher freedom of movement (due to their procs being instant casts), plus a freebie forced-trigger that they can save for high mobility (Ammo). Yes BRD has this freedom of movement in the form of Straighter Shot but that is much less frequent than MCH procs. They can also hold onto procs for a short time if they feel they are required to move in the near future. In addition to this, their buffs are based on turret placement, and not AoE around the player - but AoE around the turrent. So MCH has the freedom of placing turrets in strategic locations..

Take 2.x BRD and pre-51 MCH, all you'd really see different is the amount of procs the two get (BRD has procs through straighter shot too, what MCH does isn't anything new aside from their dps being more oriented to that), and wildfire. Post-50, they both get WM/GB which while it adds a layer of depth to the job, it's the same type of depth that really makes it feel like a shell-out when it came to designing the two jobs. Even from a "balance" standpoint, the mobility (and potential loss of dps because of it) is blatantly obvious when you're looking at BLM and SMN, alongside how they handle their resources and primary means of damage (aetherflow/trail with ruin3 mana vs umbral/astral and enochian).

I started typing before reading this part of your post.. I kind of already mentioned this in the section above so I won't go too much further into it.

I don't disagree that WM is misplaced on BRD.. It most definitely feels awkward and clunky, but the freedom of movement that 2.x BRD had was quite literally broken at end game.

When I first tried out MCH, I definitely found it played to similarly to BRD. My complaint to one of my friends was quite literally "BRD got a new glamour and a gun" (admittedly I haven't bothered levelling it beyond mid 40's, but we have a solid MCH friend/raid member, so I am not unfamiliar with it). However after playing BRD at 60, and raiding/speaking with a solid MCH I can see some pretty glaring differences in the jobs . They are there to fill the same role, yes, so their roles are certainly similar - however they play quite differently at end game. Mostly because WM just isn't suited for BRD and is a tacked on skill.

As far as BLM/SMN comparisons are concerned, I am not overly familiar with either as I have never really been a caster kind of player, however both have their strengths and weaknesses.. I mean BLM, if allowed to turret on a single target is much more preferred than a SMN, but when a SMN is given the chance to multi-dot or there is more movement than is ideal for a BLM then SMN of course comes out ahead.. BLM/SMN are very different in my eyes though - so it's tough to compare (which is why comparing how balanced they are is actually difficult).

So end-note, I can't agree that BRD and MCH are "too similar" at end game moreso than other classes. They play and feel quite different, despite having similarities in my opinion..

I would even argue that PLD and DRK are closer to a copy&paste than BRD and MCH.

Oh, there's the turret too I guess, but there's so very little interaction aside from hypercharge, it lends nothing to MCH's actual gameplay, esp in a boss fight where you can just put it in the center of the room and it'll always be within range.

Eh I commented on turrets above.. They have *some* degree of utility, over and above BRD's songs - mostly because of freedom of placement. (Can place it at the boss, or further back for the healers etc depending if TP/MP is needed). Of course this point is moot if it's simply damage.. However they are also weaker than BRD songs, no? I think this is ok, especially considering they have Hypercharge which is pretty damn good.

Yeah, while this wasn't true at Heavensward's release, Paladins and Dark Knights no longer share a stance. Grit is rightfully weaker than Shield Oath, since Grit is -20% damage to Shield Oath's -15%. This really has made every Job but Bard and Machinist have different stances mechanically.

Sorry but I can't agree that swapping a couple of numbers makes them different mechanically.

Both reduce damage dealt & damage taken, and both increase enmity. That to me is "the same" when speaking mechanics. Just because one reduces damage dealt more than the other, doesn't mean they perform mechanically different.

[MagiusNecros]

Grit and Shield Oath are the essential same ability. Slight alteration on numbers doesn't mean a damn thing.

The thing with Bard and Machinist though is that Yoshi is so in love with BLM he thought BRD/MCH should get a new playstyle based around an ability that turns them into a wannabe BLM with party support skills.

[RiceisNice]

I'm on phone so I can't quote properly, so excuse the formatting.

-I already mentioned in a mnk drg example that while they share the similiar execution in combos, they have differing layers on top of it. Drgs have botd which functions differently from what mnk or nin has to do.

- drk has their management of dark arts and mana, while paladin uses their mama for heals, and a more proactive mitigation than drk through Shelton. You can't say that pld has something consistent like dark arts in their gameplay.

- I'm not comparing mch or brd to Blm; I'm comparing mch to brd. The two really doesn't do enough to separate the two, mostly because of mechanics that aren't fleshed out. When all is said and done, ammo is a straight potency boost with tp and proc, but procs are not exclusive to mch since brd has it as well. The lowered cooldown and attached potency boost makes it a loss to even hold onto it, at that point it's another oGCD skill to slam.

[RiceisNice]

- there is very little strategy to turret placement. If you place it on the center of almost any boss arena, the turret will always be within both attacking and regen range.

- you say you only see the differences, but when you extensively play both classes, you start to feel the extremely similiar execution with managing the same mechanics of dots and buffs. Likewise with your comment of Blm and smn. Less about heir weakness, more on their actual gameplay