What is "Sustained DPS"?

[Ghishlain]

Thanks for the feedback and responses everyone.

Pretty much discussion is boiling down to the, in my opinion, the "exact definition of sustained DPS" and I wanted to make sure I would use the context correctly for the game just to avoid future confusion.

I'll probably keep mentioning "sustained DPS" for myself just because I believe most players understand what that means in practical applications.

[Pells]

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

[JackFross]

As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

I don't exactly know what in this argues against what I'm saying in my post. Your TP is a constant drain. The way you said it originally:

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

implies that you would stop attacking to regenerate resources which you call "lull and maintenance" periods - which flat out do not exist when discussing dps. You burn your resource until it's out, and then you deal with it until your next resource boost (Goad, Invigorate, Aetherflow, Shroud, etc) rolls around.

The way you explained it sounds like you don't understand how DPS works in this game, because you're talking about things that are just... non-existent? Unless you ARE talking about the points where your resources have dwindled to zero, in which case why are you here talking about DPS and referencing points that are literal non-issues in quite honestly every situation where such a point would matter?

When discussing "sustained DPS" - you can't consider it in a vacuum. You can't create some "ideal world" where these sorts of things matter, because if you discuss Job balance in a world like that, so far removed from the world we actually play in, you cannot draw ANY realistic conclusions about the Jobs in the contexts that matter. And the only conclusions that matter in a discussion of DPS are ones which can be applied to the game in realistic circumstances.

[Pells]

When discussing "sustained DPS" - you can't consider it in a vacuum. You can't create some "ideal world" where these sorts of things matter, because if you discuss Job balance in a world like that, so far removed from the world we actually play in, you cannot draw ANY realistic conclusions about the Jobs in the contexts that matter. And the only conclusions that matter in a discussion of DPS are ones which can be applied to the game in realistic circumstances.

When discussing it, no. When defining what the phrase means, you have to consider it 'in a vacuum'. Answering "Well it depends where you are, and what you're doing, along with who you've got with you. And what gear you have." isn't very much of a definition. We're not talking about job balance. We're not even talking about FFXIV specifically. We're talking about vocabulary.

As for lull times, I take it you've never experienced a fight with forced downtime? Phase transitions? Randomly targeted players being stuned/caged? Mechanics you have to stop dps for in order to handle?

As for maintenance, I guess you've never seen a BLM use Umbral Ice. Or heard of Second Wind or Goad. Or had to wait on any of your cooldowns because they're always up forever.

Oh, wait.

deal with it until your next resource boost (Goad, Invigorate, Aetherflow, Shroud, etc) rolls around

And here I thought you didn't understand what running out of resources meant. Yes, you deal with it. You don't 'stop attacking'. But it still lowers the dps you can do, and it's part of your sustained output. This is what I'm calling maintenance.

There are burst dps rotations for a reason. Anything that isn't burst is base dps. Any time where you can't attack is a lull. Sustained dps is all of these together.

[JackFross]

When discussing it, no. When defining what the phrase means, you have to consider it 'in a vacuum'. Answering "Well it depends where you are, and what you're doing, along with who you've got with you. And what gear you have." isn't very much of a definition. We're not talking about job balance. We're not even talking about FFXIV specifically. We're talking about vocabulary.

When you're posting in an FFXIV forum about a definition, it's heavily implied to be a direct reference to how that definition is applied to FFXIV. Because this is a reference to FFXIV, you need to then consider what sustained dps means - and, more importantly, how it matters - in FFXIV. The amount of DPS you can do in a 10-15 minute parse with no outside sustain, including periods where your TP/MP bottoms out and you're stuck using one attack per 3+ seconds is a meaningless measure of DPS in the context of FFXIV where such a situation never exists in any situation in any content in the game unless you straight up shoot yourself in the foot by missing a shot of maintenance.

So, no. You still shouldn't be considering it in a vacuum.

As for lull times, I take it you've never experienced a fight with forced downtime? Phase transitions? Randomly targeted players being stuned/caged? Mechanics you have to stop dps for in order to handle?

Yeah, I'm not a raider currently at 8% on A7S - I have no idea what these things mean. Can you stop and explain these definitions to me? I'm clearly missing where any of this is relevant to the above discussion of YOUR incorrect definition of sustained DPS. You're talking about two completely different things. In one breath, you're saying sustained DPS needs to be measured in a vacuum and then in the next, you're likening the forced downtime of encounters to the arbitrary/nonexistent/inconsequential downtime in your vacuum measurements. You know, the lull periods that don't exist because of the downtime in encounters.

As for maintenance, I guess you've never seen a BLM use Umbral Ice. Or heard of Second Wind or Goad. Or had to wait on any of your cooldowns because they're always up forever.

Yeah, I don't have BLM at 60 and I have never played with it extensively in dungeons, Void Ark, and Midas Normal raids. I also don't raid with a NIN who has Goad, nor do I main DRG with traited Invigorate. And yeah, I also definitely don't know the pain of having a 3-minute cooldown and waiting on it between pulls on clear attempts. You're right. You've got me pegged so well!

In addition - Second Wind has quite literally nothing to do with this discussion. I don't know why you included it there, unless its intention is to show how little you know about the topic being discussed by confusing Invigorate and Second Wind.

And here I thought you didn't understand what running out of resources meant. Yes, you deal with it. You don't 'stop attacking'. But it still lowers the dps you can do, and it's part of your sustained output. This is what I'm calling maintenance.

Yes. This is a thing that happens when you mismanage your resource management skills throughout an encounter. Because resource management is an important part of every DPS Job in the game. An even more important part of every DPS Job in the game is maintaining DPS through Mechanic interruptions. Learning to keep maximum uptime (the best buff in the game) while properly handling Mechanics that try really hard to shoot your DPS in the foot.

As such - every single fight in the game makes your insane definition of sustained DPS an absolutely meaningless description of how effective a Job is at dealing damage, because there exist no encounters in the entire game where such a definition carries any weight at all, of your own admission.

There are burst dps rotations for a reason. Anything that isn't burst is base dps. Any time where you can't attack is a lull. Sustained dps is all of these together.

Except - lull periods are sporadic and based on the fight, not the Job. Comparing two Jobs on the same fight and including these identical lull periods is precisely the same as measuring each DPS Job based on what they can do during the non-lull periods and then comparing those numbers. And that's what I'm trying to say when I'm talking about a more accurate description of sustained DPS. It's what you can do when given the opportunity to beat on a boss for a reasonable length of time that's relatively standard in encounter design in this game.

There is no situation - ever - in this entire game where you will be slamming away on a boss for 10+ minutes straight, so measuring how much "sustained" DPS you can do over that duration, including when your TP slams into the floor, is absolutely worthless, in my opinion. It doesn't tell you anything of any sort of worth related to how a particular Job or character will perform in an instance.

Sure, your dictionary definition is correct, but it's not useful. In my opinion, a definition of a game concept should be useful and should be able to be applied to the game you're defining it for in a meaningful way. If it can't, it's not an appropriate definition.

[Werhusky]

Considering its about healers... been doing SSS dummies on SCH and WHM.

WHM has extremely high burst (hence the dummy requires more damage to beat) but if you do SSS you will notice by the end on the 3 min time you will barely have any mana for any cast left. I managed to OOM at 3% and couldn't best dummy due to that while 10s left on one of em XD

SCH has that "sustained" DPS assuming it is the "longer DPS uptime" at the end of an SSS dummy my MP at at 80-98% full mana due to all the Energy Drains and Aetherflow.

This is basically the reason why people want SCH to DPS while the other heals, even tho WHM and AST have the burst... it just has the better manamanagement while doing said DPS and the fairy does the rest...

[JackFross]

I'd define sustained dps as the damage you can maintain over an indefinite period of time. This would include both the burst periods where you're burning cooldowns, as well as the lull and maintenance periods where you're regaining MP/TP and waiting for the cooldowns to reset.

B-But there's never a lull period where you're regaining TP/MP (unless you're a BLM/DRK where MP management is your gimmick). TP should be a constant drain from start to finish. If it's not, your DPS is suffering, hard. The burst regen from Invigorate every 2m doesn't really count as a period of regaining TP.

This is basically the reason why people want SCH to DPS while the other heals, even tho WHM and AST have the burst... it just has the better manamanagement while doing said DPS and the fairy does the rest...

It's less about Mana and more about utility. Healers are not DPS. They can do DPS, but they are not DPS. Their Job is healing, first and foremost. When a SCH is doing DPS, their Fairy picks up some of the slack. When the WHM is doing DPS, they're just not healing at all outside of maybe having HoTs flowing.

Fact is: WHM+Fairy is better raid heals in the majority of situations than SCH+Fairy, due to WHM's burst heal capabilities with Divine Seal, Presence of Mind, Assize, Med II, and Cure III. SCH has tools as well (Fey Illumination, Dissipation, Emergency Tactics, Whispering Dawn), but 2/4 of those are Fairy skills - and they're the two most powerful skills in that arsenal.


I didn't add to the discussion of Sustained DPS, because I feel it was quite sufficiently answered on the first page in the Burst v Sustained way.

[Pells]

B-But there's never a lull period where you're regaining TP/MP (unless you're a BLM/DRK where MP management is your gimmick). TP should be a constant drain from start to finish. If it's not, your DPS is suffering, hard. The burst regen from Invigorate every 2m doesn't really count as a period of regaining TP.

As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

[Morzy]

As far as sustained dps goes, there is no finish. That is what I mean by 'indefinite period'. If you are running out of resources, you obviously can't sustain that level of dps.

When you have an end point that you can plan to run out of juice (the boss dies), then you're really dealing with encounter dps. While this is the more useful kind to deal with, it's not what was asked to be defined by the OP.

Lol.. how technical can u get dude.

[CookieMonsta]

Lol.. how technical can u get dude.

check out the DRG thread