SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[DWolfwood]

I mean no offense but you should not use yourself as a example as this makes people believe your support for SAM Tank Job is a personal nature rather than one based on possible outcomes we are assuming in this discussion.

Oh trust me, I realize it leaves me open for attack by putting out personal information, but personal experience is still a strong argument. This conversation keeps going in circles because the people who hate the idea of a SAM tank, keep bringing up silly arguments like, "it doesn't help queues" or "it brings no variety to tanks," and when they get disproved, we hear things like, "well that's not even important."


It does bring variety to tanks, and it will help queues.

Back on topic:
We do not really know how well SAM Tank or a Red Mage Tank will attract, keep, or increase Tank population as people do have different views on things and different desired gameplay styles.

You're right, we don't know exact numbers, nor do we need to. All we need to know are the obvious without lying to ourselves. It does help to have interesting tanks come out so that low level dungeon queues keep popping for new players who need them. At the endgame level, the percentage of players who stick with it will drop, just like every other job. It's also important to remember that there is a point in endgame statics where tanks are no longer needed, and DPS will be sought, but we are not at that point yet in regards to pure melee DPS. One could argue support jobs need help in this department at best.

They also, as I have said before, must make a new Tank Job not outshine old Tank Jobs or else the game risk causing a old Job to be abandoned by already existing and future Tank job players.

Samurai is not going to outshine PLD, WAR, nor DRK. It's merely going to provide a option for those that aren't playing the one most suited to their tastes at most. What we have right now are 3 options, and there are plenty like myself who will still love other themes more. Just like adding a Samurai DPS isn't going to magically make everyone stop playing Black Mage, Dragoon, etc. It's another silly argument. More variety is good. Not bad.

[Tanathya]

This conversation keeps going in circles because the people who hate the idea of a SAM tank, keep bringing up silly arguments.

Silly arguments because they're against yours. Because the "heavy armor only" isn't silly, or because the itemization issue would effectively be an issue. There are plenty of popular jobs that can become tanks, but then again, thinking a bit out of the box is quite hard for this game's community.

To me, RDM has a way bigger cool factor than SAM, and I'd make it my main if it becomes a tank, but I don't see giving DRK up for SAM if they're the same role. And that's because they'd be too similar already.

[DWolfwood]

Silly arguments because they're against yours.

-"Adding a new and interesting tank that everyone wants to play won't help leveling queues" is a silly argument.
-"Samurai brings no variety to tanks" is a silly argument.

Because the "heavy armor only" isn't silly

I've only brought this up in regards to another silly argument where people have said "most samurai couldn't afford armor." I actually want both Shogun(Tank) and Ronin(DPS) jobs.

... or because the itemization issue would effectively be an issue.

This is an actual serious hurdle they'll have if people want a RDM tank. It can be done, but the reward doesn't outweigh the effort in my honest opinion. Feel free to press this subject and I'll elaborate.

There are plenty of popular jobs that can become tanks

So you think there are plenty jobs, but samurai? I'm confused. Getting into silly argument territory again.

To me, RDM has a way bigger cool factor than SAM, and I'd make it my main if it becomes a tank...

So make a thread. Don't use that as a reason why SAM shouldn't be a tank.

...they'd be too similar already.

Silly argument.

I want Samurai dps so it can have a cool bushido mechanic. I feel like Yoshi's team cuts corners with tanks. Or at least has a hard time with them. DRK for example. Once they have an aggro combo, they pretty much say "good enough". I feel like they try to explore so much more with DPS classes.

I mean fair enough I guess. I still want both tank and DPS samurai jobs.

Elaborate on this issue you have with DRK, because as far as I'm concerned, MNK/DRG/NIN are all about keeping up GL/BotD/Huton and DoTs. NIN alone has the interesting Mudra mechanic. I find WAR and DRK to be far more interesting.

[Tanathya]

It all comes down to you dismissing other people's (very) valid ideas just for the sake of trying to reinforce your SAM tank idea.

[DWolfwood]

It all comes down to you dismissing other people's (very) valid ideas just for the sake of trying to reinforce your SAM tank idea.

It's not exactly "dismissing" if you read that there has been extensive thought into explaining why the ideas are invalid.

[Tanathya]

It's not exactly "dismissing" if you read that there has been extensive thought into explaining why the ideas are invalid.

It is when you regard them as "silly", when they're in fact well thought. You're in your right to disagree, but you can't call them out for bringing very good points.

To you those other arguments may be invalid, but you need to realize that you may not be entirely right. I did find some of the pro SAM-tank sillier (not unrealistic) than the pro SAM-dd ones, yet I can understand that they may not be so silly for you, so they're not.

[Shippuu]

It is when you regard them as "silly", when they're in fact well thought. You're in your right to disagree, but you can't call them out for bringing very good points.

To you those other arguments may be invalid, but you need to realize that you may not be entirely right. I did find some of the pro SAM-tank sillier (not unrealistic) than the pro SAM-dd ones, yet I can understand that they may not be so silly for you, so they're not.

They are absolutely silly or non-valid arguments. That's if they even provide arguments at all considering the last two people I asked to elaborate and provide answers for the numerous issues with their alternative options couldn't be bothered to even defend their claim. The pro SAM dps arguments amount pretty much entirely to "I want it because I like it." instead of making valid and actual points. The bottom line is, there is more benefit to this game's health if new tank jobs are added whereas there is far less benefit to only adding DPS jobs. Taking very viable tank jobs and making them DPS is a disservice to this game, plain and simple and asking for outlandish replacements that try to reinvent the wheel are unrealistic expectations especially when the developers themselves have spoken and shown they are not interested in making them different for the sake of being different. DPS players can put their heads in the sand all they want, but it doesn't discard the legitimate arguments made in this thread towards SAM tank.