SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Belhi]

I'm not really bothered by SAM as either DPS or Tank. However, the expac will probably bring 2-3 new Jobs and it is unlikely that more than one will be a dps. With that as the case it means that if Red Mage, which has been strongly hinted at, comes out it and SAM is dps, Red Mage won't be a dps.

While I would be fine as SAM as a DPS, if I had to pick one class from the prospective new Jobs that have been hinted at to be a DPS, I don't think I would pick SAM. That said, I also think I'd probably prefer something a bit different for the next tanking class and SAM would have the benefit as DPS as being able to share a gear category with DRG.

[Shippuu]

Not exactly. Armor over heavy robes tends to be a very different deal from your standard plate armor over chainmail, since it's usually for caster-oriented knights (you know, like those INT-based tanks some people have been asking for). You can still use it as a base and tweak it where needed.

Don't get me wrong, heavy robes+armor is the foundation of one of my favorite fantasy archetypes in an IP, Warrior Priests from Warhammer Fantasy. But still, it doesn't offer nearly as much unique visual flair as a Samurai does.

My point is that people already got burned with DRK being turned into a tank when some expected it to be DPS. I wouldn't want to see the same done with SAM. Specially not for reasons like "every tank should deal slashing damage".

People will be "burned" no matter what if they make anything a tank role. Tanks deserve popular and pleasing ascthetic Final Fantasy jobs too. Samurai happens to be a highly requested one that actually makes sense to fit into the current restrictions on what tanks are in FFXIV. Nobody is asking for Templars and Mystic Knights. They aren't anywhere near as popular as Samurai in the slightest.
The top requested jobs are like Samurai, Red Mage, Blue Mage, Dancer, Beast Master. Of those options, Samurai is the one that fits into the tank slot the easiest, without having to spend extra time and development on weird itemization etc. They can easily wear Fending armor and not disrupt the tanking meta too much. SE is likely to take the path of least resistance whenever they can. They have to in order to produce content at the rate they do.

Not to mention Mystic Knight or Templar could be built around less passive defense and more effects that deal with mitigation. A write-up I did for Mystic Knight actually had them equipping THM/BLM gear for the 1-50 grind with a stance that modifies defense gained from that armor to give it equal EHP to PLD/DRK/WAR, and then going into "of Warding" gear for the post-50 game. Even if you were to not use THM/BLM gear, you could create a variant of medium armor to work off, and have the AF set be armor over a heavy robe while remaining the same stat-wise. If you want a point of reference for the aesthetic, look at warrior priests from the Warhammer mythos; they wear medium armor over a robe..

This is just so unfeasible. It requires an entire new subset of gear. You really think SE is going to do that for one tank when they can pick options that don't require the massive amount of work that would take? Not to mention pollute the loot pools which are already filled with so much job specific stuff. There's a reason so many jobs share gear right now as it is.

Different swing angles and force applied. On maces, the fact you can use both "faces" of the weapon to strike. The fact that you can make some of the weapon skills magic related (remember that half of the club weapon skills in FFXI were non-physical effects)...

All of these arguments can be made for Samurai as well. A way a SAM would use his sword (or swords) is far different than how a PLD or DRK use theirs. SAM also has a history of magical attacks and imbuing their blades with elements so they could cover that too.

Read the above. With maces and two-headed hammers you don't have to worry about the striking side of a weapon the way you do with an axe. Use and purpose are also very different. And again, you could make the weapon skills act as spell effects.

Again, same things apply to Samurai. All manner of unique strikes available, and iaido type techniques which are vastly different to both PLD and DRK. Magical options still apply as well. Think Tenzen from FFXI with his Phoenix sword, or like FFT's samurai that summoned spirits from their swords.

Except knives don't do anything for me.

Half of them are the size of swords. And even then that's just personal preference and has nothing to do with the validity of argument for or against SAM tanks lol. I could say hammers don't do it for me, does that mean we should never get a hammer job? It's a bit silly.

Neither do lances or fists. Nevermind the design issues I have with MCH and BRD nor the fact I generally don't main casters.

Just because you don't main casters doesn't negate that DPS don't have largest variety of playstyles and options available to them.

I'm just saying that people can speculate all day and come up with all kinds of grandiose ideas for all kinds of potential jobs, but that stuff needs to be reeled in sometimes and things need to be looked at from a game development point of view. And all things considered, if they're going to add another tank job, the easiest one to do would be Samurai.

[Shippuu]

Personally I kinda want our next DPS to be Magic based. Or even a flat magic based Tank. None of this slashing/piercing damage nonsense. Most of the jobs and classes are too centered on melee classes. Tanks? All Melee at their core. DPS? Over half of them are melee and physical. How many Magic pure DPS classes we got? 2?

Melee Healer class would be great too since over there everything is magic based.

Think out of the box a little bit.

99% of Enemies fight at melee range. So what else but melee would make any difference for tanks?

Also, prey tell how a melee healer would handle mechanics like Ifrit Ex's Searing Wind, or Alexander Turn 4's Judgement Nisi? AST got a bad enough rep because it was slightly under-tuned compared to WHM and SCH and it's reputation is still damaged and it has been shunned by a good chunk of the playerbase. A melee healer that can't be in melee during certain mechanics is just not going to happen. Fun concept to think about, but never gonna happen in this game unless SE changes their M.O. and throws their stance on balance out the window.

Not to mention plenty of healers are bad when they just have to stand there and cast, throw dodging fight mechanics that melee usually have to deal with on top of that? Sounds like a bad recipe.

[MagiusNecros]

Xande seems to do well for a Mage Tank. Could easily pull idea's from there. Or throw a curveball with RDM and make it a Tank.

Plus a lot of people have wanted Dancer for a while and what better way for a physical healer to enter the fray then Dancer?

Or are you really insinuating that the Dev team is running stagnant on idea's for job classes and will remain incompetent and utterly rely on Melee classes to make up 80% of all party composition? Which currently is the case.

[FinalWolf]

No matter what happens I look forward to the salt SAM will generate.

[Shippuu]

Xande seems to do well for a Mage Tank. Could easily pull idea's from there. Or throw a curveball with RDM and make it a Tank.

Plus a lot of people have wanted Dancer for a while and what better way for a physical healer to enter the fray then Dancer?

Or are you really insinuating that the Dev team is running stagnant on idea's for job classes and will remain incompetent and utterly rely on Melee classes to make up 80% of all party composition? Which currently is the case.

Even if you went with a mage tank, it complicates itemization. You think the devs have the time and resources to continue adding unique classifications for armor for every job? There's reasons tanks and healers share gear, and part of it is to certainly allow tanks to level multiple tank jobs and gear them simultaneously so they have the freedom to switch to a different one to fit whichever they need. This helps by giving tanks players options and gives them some incentive to continue to be tanks.

And Xande? He has all of about 4 moves, most of which could never be used in the sense of a player job. Also, half his attacks are melee attacks with his fist or cane. Plus, by that standard PLD and DRK's are already Mage Tanks as they have magical abilities that perform AoE damage or healing/shields. You cannot make a "ranged" tank at all, not in a game where everything attacks in melee. So yeah, tanks will always be melee.

You also didn't answer how a melee healer would handle those boss mechanics or any future ones similar to it. Or how about the fact throwing more melee into the mix that aren't dps will make many other mechanics much harder.

I'm not insinuating the dev team isn't capable of coming up with these ideas, I'm saying they're choosing to keep things simpler so that there can be solid balance between jobs and roles that make every combination of jobs viable. They have been adamantly clear that that is their position when it comes to jobs in this game and attempting to do something so extreme such as adding a melee healer completely goes against that.

[VanilleFang]

No healer Samurai? Tsk. That's roleist.

[Nalien]

Also, prey tell how a melee healer would handle mechanics like Ifrit Ex's Searing Wind, or Alexander Turn 4's Judgement Nisi?

From what I can tell, the game already has a distinction for ranged Jobs, so all they'd really need to do is change those mechanics to not solely be for Healers, and do something to ensure parties always have a ranged DPS (Wolves' Den already does this, interestingly enough). Alternatively they can simply work it so the specific role doesn't matter, but every party always has two ranged, or just instances where such mechanics exist always have two ranged, while the rest still have whatever.

That way, Dancer simply wouldn't have to handle such mechanics. This would make encounters potentially more difficult, since how you handle such mechanics would now depend on your party composition, but I'd be completely in favor of that. Kinda tired of all fights being pretty much the same regardless of Job composition TBH.

Of course, the simplest solution is just to make Dancer a TP based Healer that doesn't entirely copy XIs incarnation and uses ranged weaponry instead*... Throwing knives? A really long ranged whip? One of those silly chain-swords? Just have dances that are so powerful they can inflict damage from across the arena? Plenty of options... Heck, it doesn't even have to be TP based in that regard, it can still use regular old MP, I think the only important factor is that it isn't a mage... Bard and Machinist get a lot of sh*t for their new casting mechanics, but... Doesn't it make sense to have a cast time for a dance? Dances aren't instant, after all...

*Probably a good time to mention that, while Dancer in XI used daggers, its AF weapon was a throwing weapon... The War Hoop, specifically. No reason they can't build XIVs Dancer off that weapon instead of daggers.

[AlphaFox]

Well kinda with how they took DRK and forced MP to be a part of it (I dont have paladin up much but to my knowledge its only MP use is Flash up to 50?) have Dancer be a mix of TP/MP, letting the Dances and heals based off dancing consume TP while the traditional spells or such be focus on MP but have a bit higher cost to make up for the fact TP is also used.

[Nalien]

Dances consuming MP and being the primary healing kit, while its DPS kit comes from TP and throwing something like the War Hoop would work quite well IMO, yes. Just as long as they get the animation right if the attacks are still casting. Not a fan of Bard or Machinist for that (though I don't loath the animations either), but for something that is effectively a boomerang? The casting animation should be throwing it, the attack animation should go off, then the casting finishes with the Dancer catching the weapon. That would be perfect IMO. I'd hate to stand there charging up my throw... Though they perhaps don't even need to give Dancers attacks a cast time anyway.

Ugh, all this talk of Dancer as a healer is reminding me how much I loath what they did to Scholar... Musketeer => Scholar4eva! Really hope the next healer isn't another mage... There is some issue with gear, I doubt we'd see a second healer set so Dancer would be in robes which is odd, but I have no problem with that and who knows, perhaps it would motivate SE to design something that isn't a f*cking robe for future healer sets...