SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[ADVSS]

I cant agree more, of course i initially wanted both to be a dps, for sure the community would probably pick them up and love them day 1. My issue is with how tanks have been handled for "balance" and yeah i am one of those. stopped tanking in 2.1 ish as a pld main, enmity sucked it just wasnt great, even in early 2.0 getting my relic and running something simple like wanderers palace, and losing hate to zenth xerg black mages, it wasnt fun. I spent my last months tanking before 3.0 to prepare for drk, and got used to the str form of tanking. And I dont necessarily think that it was that 2 weeks of drk that boosted the tanking community, i feel like, when someone wakes up and loses 1/3 of the damage and enmity gain and potential self healing over night, they arent going to be too pleased. esp after 6 months of building it up(and no patches in between). Those that felt like 6 months of work and progress was cancelled overnight - probably quit. If you sap all the fun of the less hardcore role community out of a role, youre only stuck with the hardcore that enjoy only doing that, and until they fix this problem, it wont get any better, This is all my opinion though so take it with a grain of salt Tanking is really stressful for some, I know people who are and have been afraid to touch it since beta, things like making the role more complicated than it needs to be isnt winning people to its side at all.

[DWolfwood]

The introduction of Dark Knight did nothing to increase its popularity aside from the early days when everyone was rushing to level them up. It wasn't long that it settled back into the same pattern we had seen before.

I'm gonna have to just disagree. I personally know a lot of players who picked up tanking specifically to play DRK that are still tanking, and it's not just an anomaly. It continues to draw brand new players to the tanking role, and I don't really see how this is even refuted with how many "DRK New to Tanking" threads there are that continuously crop up on here and reddit.

That said, I think it's fair to argue that it shouldn't be made a tank, especially if the aim was to release it to appeal to the large portion of the DPS community. Is this what I think their intentions are? No. I made this thread not just to get support behind the idea of there being two samurai jobs, Shogun and Ronin, but also because I think there's already a large possibility that they might be doing this already. I honestly don't believe that Ronin will come out unless Shogun does though. There's just too much going against it in my opinion, despite what people have misinterpreted the interviews as. Even if we get both jobs, I think the possibility of Shogun coming out first is greater than them coming out at the same time.

I still maintain my stance that this game can not only accommodate both Shogun and Ronin, but should.

[Shippuu]

With all this bickering, people are forgetting one fundamental rule of FFXIV. No one wants to play as a tank.

How are people forgetting this when it's brought up pretty much every page by people wanting SAM dps?

This line of thought also completely glosses over the numerous other benefits to adding another tank job even if it doesn't increase the tank population (which is just untrue as DRK has indeed inticed players who had never tanked before to at least try it.) It doesn't need them to stay as a tank to have a positive benefit on the game's health. A new tank leveling through the dungeons provides queue pops that wouldn't have been there before.

Starting to sound like a broken record here, but people with this mentality seem to never realise the negative side to if you let tanks get stale and not offer anything new. The tank numbers will go down. If you can't increase the tank numbers you at least want them to stay the same. But offering only new jobs for say the dps role will only shoot themselves in the foot.

Sometimes all it takes to get people to try something new is putting it in a shiny new wrapper. They never know if they might like tanking if they are uninterested in the current lineup. I was the same way before I tried tanking in another game and found out I enjoyed it. Not to mention the other benefits such as giving tank players more variety, giving them another job to level through dungeons thus providing more queues in the long run etc.

Sitting there and accepting that there will always be a shortage of tanks does not mean you don't do what you can to try and alleviate the issue in any way you can when the game needs something that important in order to sustain itself.

[EdwinLi]

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Not to sound rude but...

You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

The queue time for content considered old and only used for Leveling are not something a lot of people take seriously when they play as a Tank Job from my experience with players who only are playing a Tank Job for the sake of leveling it and then dropping them at max level or just testing out the Job before they decide to stay with it for Max Level Content. The only real benefit for shorter old content queues is mostly just for leveling a class/job faster that is a DPS class/Job.

There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM. The last thing we need is SAM to become the Machinist of Tank Jobs where only the Vanity of using a Katana and SAM armor is keeping players playing as SAM while the Majority abandons SAM for the other older Tank Jobs because their gameplay is the same but depends less on a slight issue with their gameplay such as how Machinist is considered a RNG depended Bard.

[DWolfwood]

Not to sound rude but...

You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

In regards to long term, I don't think there needs to be more beyond the realization that there will be people who start this game and look at the jobs, and they will be drawn to certain jobs without giving thought to "roles." Tanking is not as bad as some think, and it certainly is not boring. There's the chance to change the misconceptions about it with brand new players, and we will certainly see numerous, "SAM(SHO) New to Tanking, Need Tips" threads.

There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM.

Currently, Warrior tanks make up the majority of tank players. A little more than 50% I would wager, and I think a Samurai tank would cut into these numbers. What defines a successful tank in my opinion is similar, and I have faith in the development team to make a very fluid and solid samurai tank that is fun to play.

Looking at how you'd define DRK's success, I'll put it this way: I loved PLD in XI, it was actually my favorite tank ever, but as the game evolved, I was forced out of it. I switched over to a WAR main for end game tanking because all that was needed was an initial aggro before we just zerged everything down in a matter of minutes/seconds. In 1.x, I was a WAR main once again (actually thought it would be a heavy DPS based on the MRD description, but seems fate had something else in mind for me) and was one of the few that saw no need in going PLD, proving to many that WAR was actually an amazing tank contrary to what they'd believed. Going into 2.x, again, I was stuck on WAR, showing how amazing it was. 2.1 onward it was not even a question and took me awhile to dispel the myths of WAR that many had on my server.

The reason I bring all this up is because I had grown pretty tired of WAR, but I'm a tank at heart. DRK gave me something new and I finally found a new main. I've been a main since it came out and hope to see more positive changes for the job. There is no doubt in my mind that a SAM tank would be a success in these regards. Rest assured that if RDM or BLU had come out as tanks, I would still be a WAR main right now and be pretty disgruntled.

Would it be so bad to get Samurai as a tank, Red Mage as a DPS, and Geomancer as Healer (melee style with a double voulge, think WoW shaman), this next expansion (or two)?

I just don't see many people demanding that we get Geomancer. I think it could definitely be a healer and should probably be because healer options are limited, but I imagine it'll happen in 5.0 at the earliest. I personally see RDM as a great healer option considering the limited ones available, contrary to what some may think. While I don't think a healer in melee range will ever happen when you consider fights like A7S and Ifrit EX, I think RDM has the versatility to have a melee DPS stance, which I think a lot of players would love as well. The ability to DPS w/o purely relying on spells would probably be appreciated and all the melee-RDM ideas could be applied there. I can also see it as a support melee, but I think DNC should have that role in the future. DNC fails at being a healer/tank for the same reason I refute a RDM/BLU tank and why we can't have a pure melee healer. A chakram DNC doesn't sound very interesting to me either if you have them dancing constantly for heals. I think Dancing should inspire us to fight harder and better, not mend our wounds.

Having a RDM as a healer in duty would not interfere with its solo-ability, which I think would be its obvious strength as a "jack-of-all-trades, master of none."

[EdwinLi]

Rest assured that if RDM or BLU had come out as tanks, I would still be a WAR main right now and be pretty disgruntled.

I mean no offense but you should not use yourself as a example as this makes people believe your support for SAM Tank Job is a personal nature rather than one based on possible outcomes we are assuming in this discussion.

Back on topic:
We do not really know how well SAM Tank or a Red Mage Tank will attract, keep, or increase Tank population as people do have different views on things and different desired gameplay styles. Even if they make SAM decent enough it may not affect the Tank population to have a noticable effect in the long term but simply shift a already existing percent of the Tank population into this new Tank Job and maybe a small increase but not enough for a noticable effect.

They also, as I have said before, must make a new Tank Job not outshine old Tank Jobs or else the game risk causing a old Job to be abandoned by already existing and future Tank job players.

[Alacran]

I only mention Geomancer as a sudo Shaman since there are members of the Ala Mihgan resistance that are classified as such. Given the much believed area that is to be the focus of the next expansion, i felt that it made sense that Shaman could in theory work as a Geomancer imo. Seeing as Blade Dancers (Dancer, RDM, BLU,) and Lancers (Templar) are also in the mix i feel there are a few options to choose from.

[ADVSS]

Not to sound rude but...


There is also the question of what will deem SAM a successful Tank Job because what I deem a successful Tank Job is not simply by attracting new players into the Tank Job role but also if a decent amount of players actually stay and play as SAM. The last thing we need is SAM to become the Machinist of Tank Jobs where only the Vanity of using a Katana and SAM armor is keeping players playing as SAM while the Majority abandons SAM for the other older Tank Jobs because their gameplay is the same but depends less on a slight issue with their gameplay such as how Machinist is considered a RNG depended Bard.

They can definitely do this if they dont go shoving in 2 or 3 job mashups onto it just because. For instance an aoe provoke for "those moments" in a trash pull, when youre raised at 0tp and 0mp and the mobs are just mauling your buddies cause teddy t heals was dps'ing lol or a gap closer on the GCD. Then theyll have to look at balancing the job for real raid use ala no more of this reprisal gimmick, realize warrior is successful because its utility is available on demand as ot or mt

[Shippuu]

Not to sound rude but...
You should provide a long term reason why SAM may affect queues in the long term for Max Level/Endgame which is where the Tank Job will be truely tested.

There honestly doesn't need to be a long term reason. As I've said time and time again, there are more benefits than just "Increase number of tank players." Other forms of incentive are what will likely fit that, and it applies to all tanks, not just relying on one job to come in and somehow save the day.

You have a very high expectation as to what you're saying SAM tank must accomplish to be successfull. In the end, it's an option that will entice players who normally don't tank into tanking. It can be a gateway for players to try tanking which in turn can result in them trying other tanks even if they dislike SAM. It's another tank job for career tanks to level through content providing additional queue pops. It's more variety for tanks to allow them to not get bored within their role and give them more options.

All of these things are worth adding it to the game. But apparently if it doesn't fix every problem that plagues the game and the role it's not good enough for you which is something I can't help you with.

Adding it as a DPS will only tilt the already unbalanced issues even further, making DPS queues longer, adding variety to a role that already has over twice the variety the other roles have. Even luring away people from more important roles into the DPS.

Tell me Edwin, what benefits does adding it as a DPS offer? Since you demand perks to adding it as a tank, please list how adding it as a DPS will help the lifespan and health of this game. I'll wait.

[EdwinLi]

Tell me Edwin, what benefits does adding it as a DPS offer? Since you demand perks to adding it as a tank, please list how adding it as a DPS will help the lifespan and health of this game. I'll wait.

You're treating this as if I don't want any Tank Job to be released for 4.0 but as I stated I believe SAM may be better as a DPS because it offers the chance for the job to be more focused on the sword skills rather than the waiting to be hit and counter aspect of the SAM and it may be better for Red Mage to be a Tank Job since as a Tank they can utilize both White Magic for defensive tank abilities and Black Magic for offensive damage and aggro abilities.


The Samurai used different sword styles for their combat each providing different offensive and defensive combat attacks but mostly focused on causing damage. There the Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu which people remember easily as the sword drawing attack, Ono-ha Itto-ryu which focus on striking down a enemy with one power slash from the sword, Jigen-ryu which focused on a power fist attack to strike their enemy down while using a sword stance that is held vertically to cover the weak spot of the combat stance, Yagyu Shinkage-ryu which focused on disarming rather than killing, and Tamiya-ryu which is the sword high stance combat style focused on distracting enemies from their foot movement with having their sword being put up high. I felt that Samurai would be suited for DPS because then it can utilize these combat styles into the gameplay as these Samurai Combat styles focused more towards causing damage.

I am not trying to be rude but you're acting as if SAM as a Tank Job is the only solution to the Tank Population issue which is a false belief since we alone can not speak for what everyone feels about this topic but only what we believe alone.