This game needs better DPS feedback

[Kaurie]

Why do people go into a DF PuG expecting optimal performance? Over 15 years of MMORPGs and this game more than any of the others I see people expecting top production out of a PuG. I feel lucky to even completed a dungeon in a PuG without half a dozen wipes. If you want perfection go play with a static.

Interesting that you mention FFXIV has the most elitist crowd, when FFXIV does not allow a parser. That said, no one is asking for perfection, and using this as an argument is strawman argument.

Someone later in this thread was complaining that PuG members were pulling 100-200 dps less than what their friends can pull. People, get your expectations in order, you shouldn't expect a PuG dps to consistently do what known (and presumably decent) dps can do. Now, I agree it is frustrating when the dps are obviously just barely paying attention while watching netflix or something. But, typically, these complaints are aimed not just at those lackluster dps, but also at people legitimately trying just not playing as perfectly as the practiced elitists prefer.

I am not sure if you are referring to me, I have not read every post - but I think mine is one of the few (if not only) which compares PuG DPS to my friends. That said, my friend was pulling 1300 and the median DPS pull 800 with the absolute best DPS pulling 1100. So yes, the absolute best DPS out there pulled 15% less DPS than my friend, and the average pulled 30% less.

Also, threads like this are why we don't get DPS meters. Because everyone can read between the lines and see that if DPS meters were allowed, half the people in this thread would blast people because they aren't pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. I personally love dps meters in other MMOs because it gives me something to compete against (whether fellow dps or my own dps) but with the amount of hate thrown at anyone not managing end-game raider dps is it any wonder they refuse to allow them?

I do enjoy the irony here, where you are judging an entire community of players on this thread with 0 knowledge of them about being judgmental of other players. You, again, used a strawman argument.

Like someone else has mentioned, I will take someone who avoids aoes, knows how to switch targets to avoid ripping aggro, and uses group buffs/interrupts appropriately over someone pulling optimal dps 100% of the time. Yes, both would be ideal, but nobody should expect perfection out of a PuG.

In most games, and FFXIV specifically, the top DPS will be someone who does mechanics properly. People who do not will often die and their numbers consequently drop. Further, people can tunnel vision without the addition of a parser, and people can parse without tunnel visioning. They not only don't cause one another, but they are not even correlated.

The primary argument is about the harassment party wide parser's can and have caused. That is a very legitimate argument and I have seen people doing such with party wide parser's many, many times in groups. Also if someone is only doing 30% then you do not need a parser to notice that in the first place. Personal parser's I am fine with, party wide one's I am against. Very few people seem to actually privately whisper/tell the player and give helpful, kind advice to them rather than resorting to shaming, belittling, insulting and harassing them in public group chat.

You are correct, this is the primary argument about parsers. However, this is less of an argument and more of a concern/fear. Why? Because there is 0 research on the matter, and consequently 0 proof. People can be dicks on the internet - which is just an unfortunate reality. People will be dicks regardless, but parsers can be used by them. Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

As for your added evidence of "i have seen..." this is purely anecdotal - contrary to you I have never seen harassment related to parsing and have seen harassment caused by people clearly not parsing a lot. For example, I've been in pugged coil raids back in 2.x where 1 guy was yelling at everyone else in the raid for having crappy DPS. I was on my SCH, so did not bear the brunt of his madness, but I was parsing and saw that he had the lowest DPS by far. Perhaps if he was parsing he would have realized this and not attacked the guy doing twice his numbers. That doesn't mean that having a parser reduces harassment, and all we can conclude is people have varying experiences and people can be jerks with or without a parser.

As for your final point, a parser can be used without anyone speaking. That is the biggest benefit of it - in my opinion. One can see and adapt their DPS without the need for chatter. I like to promote chatter, but no matter how you take it, people are sensitive and will over-react when being given advice. It is incredibly embarrassing to be told you are not doing well at something.

PS: You can see that for the above poster, I broke his post into pieces for formatting. as I understand you dislike this format, I kept your post all the same. I hope you appreciate it

[Krissey]

I usually just complain about what a shit DPS I am and how I always let BotD fall off. I pull around 1,000 DPS at ilvl 199. Dunno if that's good or bad though.

[_slowpoke_]

Now, I accept that there is a possibility that parsers cause harassment, but without any evidence or research, it's a bit unfair to say that they have caused harassment.

There is no possibility of parsers causing harassment, because a tool can't harass anyone. People using said tool can cause harassment, but as multiple people have pointed out, they can (and do) harass people without that tool. We don't need research for that, it's a plain illogical argument. The only thing that empiric research could show is whether there's a correlation between parsers and harassment, and if so, how strong it is. Even then, it would tell us nothing about parsers, but about people who use parsers, and as such what sort of measures we (or rather, SE) should take against these people and their actions (and not against parsers).

[Kaurie]

There is no possibility of parsers causing harassment, because a tool can't harass anyone. People using said tool can cause harassment, but as multiple people have pointed out, they can (and do) harass people without that tool. We don't need research for that, it's a plain illogical argument. The only thing that empiric research could show is whether there's a correlation between parsers and harassment, and if so, how strong it is. Even then, it would tell us nothing about parsers, but about people who use parsers, and as such what sort of measures we (or rather, SE) should take against these people and their actions (and not against parsers).

While I agree and strongly think that parsers do not cause harassment, I disagree that the entire argument is illogical. Just as they cannot come to a conclusion without research, neither can we. There is no evidence or research to support that adding a parser in increases (or decreases, or has no effect on) the likely hood that people will behave in a negative manner.

Parsers would not harass someone, but the information they provide may entice people to behave negatively - which is how they cause it.

Keep in mind that something causing an action does not need to actually do the action.


All of that said, I think the best way to phrase it would be to say, "I believe adding a parser will enable further toxicity among the playerbase."