DRK balance

[MagiusNecros]

If the healer is dead what use does LD have other then prolonging that wipe?

[Quor]

If the healer is dead what use does LD have other then prolonging that wipe?

It'll still last a total of 4-14 seconds "longer" than Holmgang would.

Holmgang has the exact same problem, only instead of being reduced to 1 hp and then living for 10s before we die, we're reduced to 1 hp and then die when Holmgang wears off in another 2-4 seconds.

LD is objectively better as a tank "oh sh*t" CD, since Walking Dead lasts almost twice as long as Holmgang does. Yes, you need healer coordination, but that's rather easily solved with a macro (make it separate from hitting LD if you're worried about macro lag).

[Voltyblast]

LD is objectively better as a tank "oh sh*t" CD, since Walking Dead lasts almost twice as long as Holmgang does. Yes, you need healer coordination, but that's rather easily solved with a macro (make it separate from hitting LD if you're worried about macro lag).

If you're a WHM with Benediction ready, yes it is better. If not then you're going to struggle, especially nowadays where tanks are going full vit. Before at least they had less hp due to the strength gear they had to get, meaning less hp to recovery. But now? It's insanely high for one thing and they will "start" from 1 hp, meaning that you have to heal 20k hp (more or less) in less than 10 seconds AND while the boss is still attacking, most likely negating one of your heals if the boss can hit for more than 5k damage (and I can even name a few).

And sure, while my AST can heal 5k with benefic 2, I have to do that within 10 seconds which means I have to cast it 4 times in a row: miss one and the tank is dead at 80-90%

Sure it can be fixed with a macro, but why not fix the skill itself? Maybe increase the healing taken by 100% during Walking Dead or lower the hp required to 50% instead, because it's highly unreliable as of now. Holmgang at least doesn't kill you while at 99% of hp!

[Quor]

If you're a WHM with Benediction ready, yes it is better. If not then you're going to struggle, especially nowadays where tanks are going full vit. Before at least they had less hp due to the strength gear they had to get, meaning less hp to recovery. But now? It's insanely high for one thing and they will "start" from 1 hp, meaning that you have to heal 20k hp (more or less) in less than 10 seconds AND while the boss is still attacking, most likely negating one of your heals if the boss can hit for more than 5k damage (and I can even name a few).

And sure, while my AST can heal 5k with benefic 2, I have to do that within 10 seconds which means I have to cast it 4 times in a row: miss one and the tank is dead at 80-90%

Sure it can be fixed with a macro, but why not fix the skill itself? Maybe increase the healing taken by 100% during Walking Dead or lower the hp required to 50% instead, because it's highly unreliable as of now. Holmgang at least doesn't kill you while at 99% of hp!

All true. But also important is that Holmgang has 4s lower duration, on a tank with no natural damage reduction in tank stance. So part of the execution in Walking Dead is to get the OT to step up long enough to get the DRK back to stability.

The same, of course, can be said for Holmgang. But you still have to account for an extra 4s of "hah hah you can't kill me" that LD grants. While it does suck to lose an LD DRK at 99%, there are just as many downsides to Holmgang as there are to WD/LD.

WD/LD also doesn't root you in place, preventing any movement (including turning). Most people have no idea how annoying that is. I'd really like if WAR got an actual "oh sh*t" ability instead of the band-aid that was applied to Holmgang nearly two years ago.

[Kaze3434]

If you're a WHM with Benediction ready, yes it is better. If not then you're going to struggle, especially nowadays where tanks are going full vit. Before at least they had less hp due to the strength gear they had to get, meaning less hp to recovery. But now? It's insanely high for one thing and they will "start" from 1 hp, meaning that you have to heal 20k hp (more or less) in less than 10 seconds AND while the boss is still attacking, most likely negating one of your heals if the boss can hit for more than 5k damage (and I can even name a few).

And sure, while my AST can heal 5k with benefic 2, I have to do that within 10 seconds which means I have to cast it 4 times in a row: miss one and the tank is dead at 80-90%

Sure it can be fixed with a macro, but why not fix the skill itself? Maybe increase the healing taken by 100% during Walking Dead or lower the hp required to 50% instead, because it's highly unreliable as of now. Holmgang at least doesn't kill you while at 99% of hp!

the bolded shows you dont know how it works at all. drk doesnt need to be healed to full, they need to be healed for their max hp. case in point, back when it was first brought in, bene actually didnt get rid of it, because they would be healed for max minus the 1 hp they had. any dmg they take does not affect when LD would come off. any regens on them also eases the heals needed to keep them alive.
two things about your ast i am wondering. how are your heals about 6-800 less then mine when just about everyone should be at 210 now? mine is only 211. as ast, you have the second strongest single target heal in the game. ED would most likely take the required heals down to one. even if it was on cd, your other cool downs would help you keep them alive. really the only thing needed in regards to living dead is paying attention.

edit, thinking about it, the only bosses that would even hit that hard, you wouldnt be healing it by yourself.

[Voltyblast]

Snip

Well duh, I'm not a healer main: my healer is only 197, so of course it won't heal for 6k or more: this is just my experience on the field, not just a super complex calculation i did in the mind. Infact all what I just said in that post takes in consideration the best case scenario.

Let me put this way: as an AST (which is 197 so mind that) whenever a DRK goes into Walking Dead Status it simply means I have to heal to their Max hp. I said 20k but in reality it can be even 25k, so one more heal with -my- gear. Sure I have regens and all that but it's yet again the best case scenario: what if he or she has a healing debuff? What about damage increase debuffs? Those have to be counted as well and only hinder your tank's survival whenever that happens.

Sure I admit it, I'm bad with AST but it still doesn't change the fact that LD and WD are the most unreliable tanking saves in the game so far, because it adds busy work to a relatively simple mechanic: surviving a deadly blow. Oh it sure saves you from that blow but is your tank at 99% hp after 10 seconds? Oops it's dead, gotta heal faster! Is it my fault if my AST is weak and can't heal them to max hp? Alright then why PLD and WAR can survive just fine with my gear? Their CDs won't kill them after 10 or 5 seconds of not full health, but it will kill them if I don't recovery them a certain amount of hp. Keyword here being "A certain", not "100% hp"

And yes, ED is a strong heal, but it's no Benediction: it can scale up to 1000 potency ((according to Reddit), but it doesn't beat 100% hp recovery!

PS: Calcabrina can hit for about 8k, and the bosses in the arboretum can hit for about 5k unmitigated on a DRK/PLD. So yes, there are some dungeon bosses who can do that high amount of damage. And yes I can tell that because I'm a tank main. Ironically not a DRK though.

[Kaze3434]

Well duh, I'm not a healer main: my healer is only 197, so of course it won't heal for 6k or more: this is just my experience on the field, not just a super complex calculation i did in the mind. Infact all what I just said in that post takes in consideration the best case scenario.
Let me put this way: as an AST (which is 197 so mind that) whenever a DRK goes into Walking Dead Status it simply means I have to heal to their Max hp. I said 20k but in reality it can be even 25k, so one more heal with -my- gear. Sure I have regens and all that but it's yet again the best case scenario: what if he or she has a healing debuff? What about damage increase debuffs? Those have to be counted as well and only hinder your tank's survival whenever that happens.

Sure I admit it, I'm bad with AST but it still doesn't change the fact that LD and WD are the most unreliable tanking saves in the game so far, because it adds busy work to a relatively simple mechanic: surviving a deadly blow. Oh it sure saves you from that blow but is your tank at 99% hp after 10 seconds? Oops it's dead, gotta heal faster! Is it my fault if my AST is weak and can't heal them to max hp? Alright then why PLD and WAR can survive just fine with my gear? Their CDs won't kill them after 10 or 5 seconds of not full health, but it will kill them if I don't recovery them a certain amount of hp. Keyword here being "A certain", not "100% hp"

And yes, ED is a strong heal, but it's no Benediction: it can scale up to 1000 potency ((according to Reddit), but it doesn't beat 100% hp recovery!

PS: Calcabrina can hit for about 8k, and the bosses in the arboretum can hit for about 5k unmitigated on a DRK/PLD. So yes, there are some dungeon bosses who can do that high amount of damage. And yes I can tell that because I'm a tank main. Ironically not a DRK though.

going to take each point in turn. only point i wont touch is the ilvl of your ast(tho i did do some testing to see what heals would be like at that point, about 5.3-4 k.)
first point i will say is about the healing debuff. pretty much every single healing debuff that happens, happens to the healer, because it targets the spells that heal, not the person that gets them. there are a few that lower how much a person gets healed for(ramuh) but they are few and far between. the dmg increasing one usually happens when someone screws up something, and if it happens enough to the point that any tank oh crap cd is needed to live, chances are it was going to be a wipe no matter what.

second point is the healing amount required. this amount isnt the sole responsibility of the healer. drk has the job of making sure they live thru that as easy/simple as possible. its the same case for warrior. any smart tank is going to put up more then just LD/Holm. in the case of drk, they can make it easier to live by using two cds with ld. convalescence and blood bath(overkill imo, as one would make it easy to live). same goes for the healer. pay attention, and if such a cd is used, prep for major heals. main healer i would think having some trouble with LD is sch depending on timing.(tho emergency tactics is pretty amazing. had a few crits that healed for 10k+)

last point is about the bosses you mentioned. or rather, bosses in general. all tank busters are telegraphed to hell. if any tank had to use their big cd to live to knock down, they werent getting healed to begin with, because there is almost no dmg going out during that fight, save for a few auto attacks. that would be less of a tank issue and more a healer issue. that bee boss however, i will give you that. screw that boss and its "let me sting you harder at whenever i want".

[Voltyblast]

Snip

Just wanting to tell you that you're not incorrect, but you're taking in consideration the best case scenario of everything and this is only half good, half bad.

Let me put this way: do you know how many tanks I had to heal through bad big pulls? And how many tanks didn't use their CDs correctly? OR how many tanks didn't aggro well and I had to heal the dps more than the tank (yes it's something I had to deal with)? More than you can imagine. Sure this becomes "easier" if the tanks knows what to do but this is not always the case: everything we both said takes in consideration the best case scenario, where a tank dodges everything and uses CD accordingly, but it's not always the case: the reality is that a lot happens and there are a lot of variants.

And this brings back the topic: LD/WD is too unreliable because it requires a lot of "work" in order to be effective and considering that sometimes tanks might be extremely bad (but also extremely good), this might or might not work in a normal scenario. As a PLD when I cast HG I won't die even if the healer is bad at topping me and same for the WAR, despite the less duration of Holmgang, but as a DRK I will die regardless of my health, except if it reaches 100% hp.

Of course in raids this doesn't count "that much" because you have two healers, but it still doesn't change the point that it's just unreliable and needs some rework to make it a little better. As of now, it's just a P.I.T.A.

PS: A lot of tank busters aren't telegraphed and are like auto-attacks (like Titan), while some aren't (like Calcabrina) and here's one thing that I dislike about DRK: they don't have a reliable Defensive Burst like Inner Beast or Sheltron. Reprisal is a 10% damage debuff which is nice but has to be lucky to have it at the right time (its proc doesn't last long: you either use it or wait another parry). Dark Arts Dark Dance can trigger evasion but for what I know Tank Busters cannot be dodged so you'll have to stick with 30% parry chance. Their other CDs are mostly mitigation.

[shao32]

to heal living dead you need recover X hp if DRK have 23k of hp you need recover those 23k in total, the damage taken don't affect the amount of hp you need to recover, convalescence, bloodbath and soul eater helps too, you can help you healer with that and no waste benediction at all, if the healer don't see living thats her problem but i don't expect they save me if only i use living dead and i don't use nothing more to help with heals.

If the healer is dead what use does LD have other then prolonging that wipe?

if healer is dead you wipe al ready in a dungeon or you have a sumoner for raise her or you are doom, and WAR have the same problem they are hit to 1 hp if healer are dead and holmgang ends bye bye WAR, so this is not a excuse.

I honestly feel like LD was designed around raid encounters and those who don't raid have a lot of trouble dealing with LD in general

or you are runnig with a really bad healer or you are tanking more mods that you healer can heal, is extremly rare need use LV in dungeons, more if you are using your CD properly., dungeons are veary easy.

dark arts mp cost scale with you mp, so no mater if you have 30 or 30k the cost is the same.

DRK complexity is manage you mp, DRK are not designe to use dark arts 100% of the time, that is a maddnes, DRK are designe to when and what dark arts i use, thats the diference betwen good and bad DRK.