Feedback: Class Balance in The Feast 4v4 (Tier List Included)

[Exira]

1: Repose is now more difficult to use because the duration is halved, meaning it has half the effectiveness. You have to make tougher decision and use it at key moments, as the duration is halved. So you half the time of sleep. It's cut in half.

2: You don't understand what I mean when I say "see the burst coming". EX: Bard can only burst when dots are up. DRG burst is inc when you see Vorpal thrust. Warrior burst is inc at 5 stacks of abandon. Just because a MCH has their buffs up, that burst could come, on ANY target, in a 20+ second period. That is not "seeing it coming".

To add to this barrage is a DEAD giveaway that the burst is coming and many people watch for it Im noticing. MCH doesn't have the dead giveaway that BRD does. They both have to pop buffs but so does everyone. I'm not sure what to do about balance but you can't deny that MCH burst is way harder to predict

[RiceisNice]

1: Repose is now more difficult to use because the duration is halved, meaning it has half the effectiveness. You have to make tougher decision and use it at key moments, as the duration is halved. So you half the time of sleep. It's cut in half.

Which doesn't make it more difficult to use, but lowering it's effectiveness. Nothing's changed because you didn't want to waste sleep DRs before or after the change.

2: You don't understand what I mean when I say "see the burst coming". EX: Bard can only burst when dots are up. DRG burst is inc when you see Vorpal thrust. Warrior burst is inc at 5 stacks of abandon. Just because a MCH has their buffs up, that burst could come, on ANY target, in a 20+ second period. That is not "seeing it coming".

Cleaner shot has a 10 second duration (and is a buff no less which can get knocked off by OIP and similar abilities) , along side the cooldowns and reassemble (at which point they're committed to using clean shot). Likewise with warrior, 5 stacks of abandon doesn't mean a burst is coming in, that's normally paired with both full swing and berserk, at least if their intention is to floor someone.

To add to this barrage is a DEAD giveaway that the burst is coming and many people watch for it Im noticing. MCH doesn't have the dead giveaway that BRD does. They both have to pop buffs but so does everyone. I'm not sure what to do about balance but you can't deny that MCH burst is way harder to predict

MCH needs to line up clean shot and pop reassemble (which commits them to using that clean shot), and the clean shot proc itself only has a 10 second duration, after which you'd have to use slug shot (and chances are, it's a hard cast or instant cast without GB)

Cleaner shot is still not barrage or as good of an indication. Please try again

Between having cleaner shot ready, cooldowns up, and reassemble active, what more of an indication do you want? You're saying barrage is a dead giveaway, cleaner shot is just as much when you're lookin at other cooldowns being paired and reassemble. On top of that, ricochet still gets it's damage diluted by 100 potency at the minimum for 1 target.

[Renault]

To add to this barrage is a DEAD giveaway that the burst is coming and many people watch for it Im noticing. MCH doesn't have the dead giveaway that BRD does. They both have to pop buffs but so does everyone. I'm not sure what to do about balance but you can't deny that MCH burst is way harder to predict

And that's just it. I do not mind bards as much, even though they have the potential to 100-0, because I can ANTICIPATE it and PREPARE. This game's net code is not kind to reactions, as if you are a reactionary player, you are going to die 99% of the time.

[Exira]

Cleaner shot has a 10 second duration (and is a buff no less which can get knocked off by OIP and similar abilities) , along side the cooldowns and reassemble (at which point they're committed to using clean shot). Likewise with warrior, 5 stacks of abandon doesn't mean a burst is coming in, that's normally paired with both full swing and berserk, at least if their intention is to floor someone.

Cleaner shot is still not barrage or as good of an indication.

I guess the real question is why arent you ranked in your data center if you seem to have such extensive pvp knowledge and seemingly dispute every single opinion posted on these forums?

[Renault]

Which doesn't make it more difficult to use, but lowering it's effectiveness. Nothing's changed because you didn't want to waste sleep DRs before or after the change.

This statement is simply incorrect. Before, you could throw out sleeps and not really have to think about the timing or the window of CC and pressure you'd be putting on the enemy team. Now, that is a huge factor when using Repose. I'm really unsure how you can argue against this. It's like...you hit a dart board around the outer ring before, but now you have to hit a bullseye. Does that make sense to you?

Also, to your MCH point. Clean shot is not a good indication of when a MCH can burst, as the bulk of their damage does not come from clean shot. You can still 100-0 someone even without clean shot in your burst at all.

[RiceisNice]

This statement is simply incorrect. Before, you could throw out sleeps and not really have to think about the timing or the window of CC and pressure you'd be putting on the enemy team. Now, that is a huge factor when using Repose. I'm really unsure how you can argue against this. It's like...you hit a dart board around the outer ring before, but now you have to hit a bullseye. Does that make sense to you?

I get what you're saying, but running with your dart example, it's not harder to get a bullseye, which really is why repose/sleep is so devastating. A misplaced sleep is going to get cleansed or counter-played with a well-timed purify regardless of it's original duration, and a well placed sleep has a shorter duration (and even 4 seconds is still quite a long time in PvP) but is still nonetheless influential. You even mentioned it briefly, the timing of when the CC comes out is important to be something you can capitalize on.

Also, to your MCH point. Clean shot is not a good indication of when a MCH can burst, as the bulk of their damage does not come from clean shot. You can still 100-0 someone even without clean shot in your burst at all.

A reassembled Cleaner shot is their second highest potency attack at roughly 345~ potency, only behind BtE (and an undiluted ricochet assuming it crits). If that's really the case, then you might as well leave out sidewinder for BRD so they don't need both DoTs on you, and at that point their burst is stronger than MCH assuming nothing crits (which in going by your example, its going to 100-0 you just as easily). And even riding on what is a good indication or not, any competent bard would give you a 2~ second window of reaction on when a empyreal barrage is going to happen between using barrage and casting empyreal arrow right after, which is about the same timeframe it takes for a MCH to throw out four oGCDs (bind>BtE>Ricochet>GR)

[Renault]

I get what you're saying, but running with your dart example, it's not harder to get a bullseye.

I stopped reading here. If you think this way, then there is no reasoning with you. You do not play White Mage, and you are not even in the top 100 players on your Data Center. I was not going to question your credibility, because I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but this right here just goes to show you mean only to argue without basis. I am not here to argue on the internet, I'm here to discuss the game mode with people and take viewpoints of different changes that could/should happen.

[RiceisNice]

I stopped reading here. If you think this way, then there is no reasoning with you. You do not play White Mage, and you are not even in the top 100 players on your Data Center. I was not going to question your credibility, because I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but this right here just goes to show you mean only to argue without basis. I am not here to argue on the internet, I'm here to discuss the game mode with people and take viewpoints of different changes that could/should happen.

Likewise to you since you somehow still insist that mch is op'd in the current state. But I acknowledged your perspective and posted why I don't think it's the case, while you straight up said "stopped reading" without trying to come to an understanding from my perspective. Honestly why even make the topic if you're not going to consider the otherside of the argument and make up your own points (like how you can see empyreal barrage when a bard can just cast it right after using barrage).

You of all people should understand this, as you even made a post yourself in this regard.

... Just because someone has something to say, doesn't mean they are informed, practiced, or even correct. And if they feel so strongly about their opinions, there is an open PVP forum for them to post on...

Even right now the rankings are hard to take for face value because of how the matches are set up, especially when it ultimately boils down to matches play and win percentages (and in the case of solo, this is an entirely big mess to take for face-value)

[Proudwolf]

Renault.....Rice post all the time on the pvp forums and the things Rice post has never came off as trolling or arguing for arguing. Hell I've managed to up my MCH game thanks to a couple of their tips. BTW MCH opening burst and burst overall can be easily countered by guess who the BLM or WHM you should set the MCH to focus target and look out for rapid fire and other buffs to be popped (pay real attention to rapid fire though) as soon as you do sleep/ repose the shit out of them. It's the equivalent of blue balls for us. If you don't have either class LoS them to delay the amount of shots they get off in rapid fires duration. I feel like everytime someone says "X class is op" it's more because the players do not understand how to counter it. Also if they use wildfire on you or someone else.....I really shouldn't have to explain what's next.

[Renault]

Snip

I was open to your point of view, that's why we had a discussion. In the end, I still stick with how I originally thought, I do not agree with you, and I think that is okay. You believe what you wish, but I believe my own opinions to still be true.

Also, I'll say again, I simply cannot 'take your word for it' because I just don't see you as a credible source when it comes to Machinists. You clearly do not participate in PVP, and the rankings are pretty solid for measuring a player's skill, as if you're near the top, you're pretty damn good at consistently carrying your team.