Progression: Eos+AST vs Selene+WHM

[KarstenS]

Reach the dps needed for midas is quite a thing, and even if your team is good, unless you go there with a great ilvl, you'll need the off healer dps.

We did clear A5S in the third week after release (in i212-214) and in A6S DPS is not our current issue to give him the final blow.

In the first place we focus on "make it save" or "make it last longer" to get more practise out of every pull. If we reach the point we need the healer DPS to beat the enrage, we will do audjustments to get it. But in A5 and in A6 there is no need for that.

With our current gear, we clear A5S rigth before the add with the axe (the 100% crit rate one) without significant healer dmg (just in some situations, where the downtime is to boring). Don't know how far this is away from enrage, as we never have seen the enrage in this turn.

When your damage without healer DPS is to low, than your team of DPS players is not good. DPS checks in Midas are much easier than in Gordios. Midas is more about mechanics, which is IMHO the better solution to make it challanging.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Sch have to dps and only support at some point by shielding /healing a bit.

I'm going to hop onto the hate train and point out that it is not the scholar's exclusive responsibility to contribute some damage. Whoever the white mage or astrologian is get plenty of opportunities as well regardless of encounter.

[Vulcwen]

The question is whether a general 1.5% dps buff (roughly.. it's not entirely accurate) is worth losing out on if the main healer can get in a few more DPS casts. If a group averages 1300 dps without the buff, nor the extra dps casts (includes healer/tank dps), for a total of 10400 dps, or 624k damage per minute..
1.5% extra DPS means in this case 9360 extra damage in a minute.

That means every minute, the main healer needs to have at least 9360 more damage output when running with Eos over Selene due to needing to heal less to make this worth it.. This amount of damage is roughly equivalent to 4 gcds from my experience.. That is actually a pretty significant requirement, so I don't think, from a DPS perspective it's worth going for Eos.

But, if you're still progressing, and need to practice mechanics, going with Eos can make things a bit easier on the main healer, so they can focus more on mechanics until they have that down well enough you can swap to selene..

[Kaurie]

The question is whether a general 1.5% dps buff (roughly.. it's not entirely accurate) is worth losing out on if the main healer can get in a few more DPS casts. If a group averages 1300 dps without the buff, nor the extra dps casts (includes healer/tank dps), for a total of 10400 dps, or 624k damage per minute..
1.5% extra DPS means in this case 9360 extra damage in a minute.

That means every minute, the main healer needs to have at least 9360 more damage output when running with Eos over Selene due to needing to heal less to make this worth it.. This amount of damage is roughly equivalent to 4 gcds from my experience.. That is actually a pretty significant requirement, so I don't think, from a DPS perspective it's worth going for Eos.

But, if you're still progressing, and need to practice mechanics, going with Eos can make things a bit easier on the main healer, so they can focus more on mechanics until they have that down well enough you can swap to selene..

Personally, I think that fitting in 4 more GCD's per minute is totally plausible with pumping out a 20% healing buff to both your WHM/AST and Eos and using whispering dawn. That sheds a lot of the healing requirement on the SCH him/herself quite substantially. Also, your Raid DPS seems quite high. The Hummelfaust raid dps check, for example, is 8500 or 510k per minute. That 1.5% extra DPS = 7650 damage then. Depending on the skills used, crits etc, this could be 2-4 GCD's.

In regards to Hummel, personally our raid team just meets this (8.7k ish) with both me as SCH and our OT (WAR) full out DPSing. In an actual environment where SCH is healing more and WAR is tank swapping more, then the raid dps would be less. Add on to this mechanics which take away DPS completely (jumps etc.) Our raid team could definitely have improved DPS, but our Raid DPS for A5S actual fight is much closer to 6k.

[Vulcwen]

Hmm.. true.. that average DPS was indeed guessed too high (and I admit it was just guessing :P).. I do think the 4 gcds guess is pretty reasonable though.. but I forgot it can also save a gcd for the scholar, meaning 2-3/min on the main healer can just be enough to make the difference, and I think that's reasonably possible.

I'd say the difference is pretty small then, so then Eos would be the way to go due to it offering more flexibility, if your main healer is willing to DPS during progression.

[Kaurie]

Hmm.. true.. that average DPS was indeed guessed too high (and I admit it was just guessing :P).. I do think the 4 gcds guess is pretty reasonable though.. but I forgot it can also save a gcd for the scholar, meaning 2-3/min on the main healer can just be enough to make the difference, and I think that's reasonably possible.

I'd say the difference is pretty small then, so then Eos would be the way to go due to it offering more flexibility, if your main healer is willing to DPS during progression.

For sure, it's actually one area of the game that I think is very well balanced - where it's more about playstyle choice than anything. =)

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Personally, I think that fitting in 4 more GCD's per minute is totally plausible with pumping out a 20% healing buff to both your WHM/AST and Eos and using whispering dawn.

Except that Fey Illumination isn't a 60 second CD, but a 120 CD and has a 20 second duration. Not considering the effectiveness of the healing for now and assuming you chain cast your heals within the 20 seconds, you'd end up with 9.6 GCDs worth of healing or 1.6 GCD "saved". Whispering Dawn would save you 1 GCD at most, so Eos would be good for 3,6 GCDs/2 minute and assuming you use them whenever they're available.

In practice, however, using Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination whenever they're up is rarely effective or required. Chances are you'll a good chunk of time on it and you'll spread them over the fight, rather than using them together. While the maximum GCD "saved" with Eos is 4 GCDs (rounded)/2 minutes, you'd need 8 GCDs within the same time frame to patch up for the lack of attack speed buff. Which can be used whenever it is available, unlike healing CDs.

[Kaurie]

Except that Fey Illumination isn't a 60 second CD, but a 120 CD and has a 20 second duration. Not considering the effectiveness of the healing for now and assuming you chain cast your heals within the 20 seconds, you'd end up with 9.6 GCDs worth of healing or 1.6 GCD "saved". Whispering Dawn would save you 1 GCD at most, so Eos would be good for 3,6 GCDs/2 minute and assuming you use them whenever they're available.

In practice, however, using Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination whenever they're up is rarely effective or required. Chances are you'll a good chunk of time on it and you'll spread them over the fight, rather than using them together. While the maximum GCD "saved" with Eos is 4 GCDs (rounded)/2 minutes, you'd need 8 GCDs within the same time frame to patch up for the lack of attack speed buff. Which can be used whenever it is available, unlike healing CDs.

Not really sure I agree with your math, but I appreciate the response =)

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Not really sure I agree with your math, but I appreciate the response =)

Well, you're the one who said it's "plausible" without any proper presentation. So do tell me what's not to agree on about that, with the advantage given to Eos in all aspects?

[KarstenS]

assuming you chain cast your heals within the 20 seconds

In theroy this sounds nice. In reality healing is not the same as DPSing.

Show me just one encounter where you do chaincast heals for 20 seconds without any downtime.

And when you chain cast heals for 20 seconds, why are the buffs of Eos not more useful? When a healer chaincast heals, its just about you need more potency. And in the most cases these situations should be short burst phases or you are OOM within a very short timeframe.

The usual ways to increase the overall potency is:

- More HoTs
- use buffs that directly increase the potency
- use buffs that lower the damage

3 things that Eos brings on the table. Selene brings just one single buff that could increase the output a little bit in some very rare situations.

Increasing spell speed is IMHO more a last option if nothing else is left. For example presence of mind. Except for stoneskin double prey in T10, I've always used this buff for DPS and never for healing.