4.0 Ideas

**xJimmehx** · 05-06-2016 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by Kaizer

For RDM, instead of being able to do all three jobs, its a DPS that gives buffs that benefits all 3 roles in specific ways, while not being particularly strong in its own role.

This sounds cool to me. It reminds me of bard. I also like the way bard doesnt seem to have a rotation. (im not a bard, i could be wrong) I think if they made red mage use whatever it wants without any forced rotation. That would be the coolest job to play imo. I would most likely main a class that includes melee and magic dps and doesnt have a rotation. That just sounds so perfect. If its slightly weak like a bard and buffs others then that would seem fitting so that it wouldnt be op(by having all options ..let them be weak for balance).

**Morningstar1337** · 05-06-2016 07:02 AM

Or we can use RDM into two/three distinct Jobs, like ARC, but without the inherent issues of a class branching out. ARM/BSM already set a prescient for 2 guilds in one building.

The idea would be two classes that both use a type of Swords and elements of both Black and White Magic

The first one would be closer to the Flavor of a RDM. Using Rapiers an Having access to 12 attacks, 2 attack for each elements (Fire, Water, Ice, Thunder, Wind and Earth) but 1 Cure Spell and 1 Raise spell, Like SMN.

The 2nd one would have more Healing spells in their kit (a HoT, an AoE Heal, a debuff cleanser, and a spell that is highly potent but has a cooldown in the same vein as Tetragammatron or Essential Dignity) and use Epees as both a wand an a piercing weapon. But would have less elemental spells (They would only have Thunder and ice spells)

In addition, both classes would use their elements in different but simialr ways the DPS Job would for example would use Chain Lightning making an AoE Thunder spell, while the Healer Job can use Thunder to cleanse debuffs, but both would still be based off of RDM

**ADVSS** · 05-06-2016 08:15 AM

ideally summoner shouldnt have to use res or physick but those utilities can come in handy in alot of situations(well res) physick would get more use if it was on par with scholars but thats exactly how they differentiate these spells by mind and int respectivelyyou could even give red mage clerics to use it backwards from how healers use it(and the potency reduction for healing would never make it an optimal heal in any case so healers wouldnt have to worry too much and just be relieved with a short spot healing if necessary), but to me that would probably kind of be too much for them to balance, maybe not. Smn is sort of a basis as to why i feel like having redmage be a DoM melee/mid ranged caster dps with just a few restorative and utility that wouldnt encroach on the healer role too much, would maybe give it a fairly close resemblance of early redmage. Sure jack of all trades, but it would never get a holy, or flare, or cure 3 or what not, it did come with double cast which could be the job gimmick or just a long cd to improve some abilities like battlevoice works? I never played 11 which im thinking this can be a tank comes from but usually redmage just had medium armor(chain mail) and probably ninja level armor too in ff1 nes, so...im not sure why it would have to be all 3 i never used redmage as a healer just a touch up healer or exit/warp/life outside of battle sort of mage, primarilly used its melee unless a fire based enemy died faster with low level ice spells, etc

**Yuni_Queen** · 05-06-2016 06:36 PM

The fact they come in handy do not change another fact, that they are no use for DPS. DRG, in example, thnx to lack of Physicks and Rezz, have two other skills allowing to increase damage output (let's ignore the fact, he has Feint skill...).

**DWolfwood** · 05-07-2016 07:00 AM

I think RDM needs to be a healer with heals that aren't as strong as WHM's. They'd have defensive shields like SCH in the form of phalanx, and could either be a frontline melee healer, or have a melee stance.

I just don't think the pure DPS role suits them because every support DPS is still like 99% DPS. If you add a healing aspect and give them either self-heals or party AoE heals via their melee combos, you pretty much got DNC. DNC should be the melee support job imo. As for RDM as tank, they're not supposed to excel at anything, and I think a tank that is defensively weaker than the other tanks is just a bad idea. The only role that makes sense to me is healer, since healers already do both healing and DPS, and they can "tank" to an extent as well, albeit not as good as a real tank. Sounds perfect for RDM since they could give it stronger DPS than the other healers. They could still have enfire and chainspell.

**Xenosan** · 05-07-2016 12:54 PM

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same. Until they are given the same balance you'd have issues like in pre-Aht Urgan FFXI where certain RDM and WAR builds were game-breakingly beyond other classes and the standard tank/healer/refresher/DD structure.

SE could never (or more they simply chose not to) fix that imbalance without destroying the original party structure. Which is what ended that game's prominence, imo. FFXI was competing with WoW up until then and provided a "more true" (only way I can describe it) MMO experience (imo, obviously).

So I'm hesitant on the idea of RDM breaking trinity barriers beyond an certain extent, just from that history.

New, innovative, and game-changing are descriptions not (entirely) synonymous with format-breaking.

There's still plenty of room for diversity within the current design, I don't think there's reason to tear down those walls just yet.
(And that potential is what makes Wander's Minuet / Gauss Barrel &&& Rampart / Shadowskin SO much more frustrating to me)

**ADVSS** · 05-07-2016 01:55 PM

well theyd just have to work on more utilities, im amazed that monk ddnt get build up as a part of forbidden chakra, or 'chakra' for instance, that skill alone would give them utility, all in all i am fine with some diversity aimed to give some relief to healers or tanks, like ninjas enmity control, a combat raise, like smn has, maybe even just a clemency like heal with great risk to mp etc. The idea i dont think is to make the other roles less necessary, its to aid them if theyre struggling or to work together to clear content. I mean, who doesnt love clutch kills? Originally i always wondered why paladin didnt at least get a battle raise, so many oppurunities to save a wipe, etc. But again here is a guy who likes to do silly things like 4 dps dungeon runs, just to shake it up a little bit and see how far you can go without following the rigid strict rules of this role, 2 this role, 1 this role. and i swear if you ever get the chance to do an 8 scholar titan hard mode, youll probably cry laughing so hard it is pretty hillarious

**Khalithar** · 05-07-2016 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Xenosan

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same.

It's fine if they deviate a little bit. I mean Paladin has a pretty potent healing spell, but it's balanced by the cast time and the high mp cost. If they gave rdm some defensive utility (a self heal, some sort of defensive cd, etc.) it wouldn't be that big of a deal.

**Shurrikhan** · 06-06-2016 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by Xenosan

Giving trinity-breaking role diversity to RDM would leave other jobs in the same role asking for the same. Until they are given the same balance you'd have issues like in pre-Aht Urgan FFXI where certain RDM and WAR builds were game-breakingly beyond other classes and the standard tank/healer/refresher/DD structure.

SE could never (or more they simply chose not to) fix that imbalance without destroying the original party structure. Which is what ended that game's prominence, imo. FFXI was competing with WoW up until then and provided a "more true" (only way I can describe it) MMO experience (imo, obviously).

I see no issue with letting other jobs also move out of the rigid trinity somewhat, as long as design moves more or less as one, rather than leaving obvious favorites for these new ventures.

You've mentioned the true issue itself. They chose to ignore glaring imbalance issues. That's generally pretty bad. However, I don't think movement from the original party structure would otherwise have had much to do with FFXI's downturn, if at all. WoW itself turned further away from hybrids with every single expansion, often to criticism. FFXI having some diversity by no means broke its competitive banking against WoW. But any negligence in implementation certainly can, and likely did.

**Xenosan** · 06-06-2016 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

However, I don't think movement from the original party structure would otherwise have had much to do with FFXI's downturn, if at all.

Where would you place the divide, then? I'm just wondering, (Chains of Promanthia? Off topic about FFXI:

For me it was Aht Urgan. The TP Burn party was such a petty hand-out that betrayed what the game was, and did nothing to address job balance - just gave jobs other than WAR/RDM/NIN/MNK(?) a way to get carried (but were still inferior in performance anyway). And it was pandering to WoW players,

I think they should have stuck to their guns. CoP, for all it's criticism, kept a prominent line in the sand distinguishing FFXI from the 'casual mmorpg' WoW, and that was good, imo. Once they started pandering to that crowd though, they just threw a wrench in their own clockwork.

)

I'm mostly just worried that if they made RDM a utility focus DPS, (especially if it's off-healing utility), it will end being implemented poorly because that doesn't really fit the model for what FFXIV raid/dungeon DPSers want. If it was an off-healer that could help push away SCH's monopoly on that role, that'd be different. But can you imagine RDM as primarily a healer?

Other than the new jobs,
I think the best approach to simultaneous adjustments for current Jobs is replacing cross-class skills.

As for how it's implemented, I can imagine:

A new job quest-line going back to the characters of the original class-quest storylines. The end of which every job gets a new soulstone. "Soulstone of the Scholar" <HQ symbol>, for example.

We keep the old Soulstones too, and the cross-class restrictions on those old ones are removed (if you wear the old Soulstone, can cross-class whatever you want), but the new soulstones have no cross-class skills, and instead offer 5 new job abilities. 'Current' content requires the new soulstone, but old soulstones can be used in Unsync'd, open world, and older content.

Swiftcast, Cleric Stance, Protect, Blood for Blood, Foresight/Bloodbath/Convalescence/MercyStroke, Blizzard 2, Raging Strikes, E4E, Virus..

There are a lot of cross-class skills - if replaced with new versions which offer their own nuances that cater specifically to their respective job - could redefine jobs, enhance their playstyles, their utility, etc etc. There's a lot of flexibility and design freedom if this were to happen.

Continuing to build 'on top' of this antiquated cross-class system just isn't wise, imo. No amount of DPS spells for WHM/AST will change their practical DPS when they're gated behind Cleric, which will remain best only for SCH (unless they give WHM/AST their own faeries). That's just one example; personally, I'm ready for a change.

So I'm hoping SE is considering an adjustment like this^, if not for 4.0 but sometime in the future. A suitable alternative to a lvlcap increase for 1 patch cycle imo.

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