Drk opener as mt

[Chronons]

snip

Hey, thank you for responding to my criticisms. I think only three of your point are related to me so I will try to only speak to them.
1. I don’t think I advocated the use of Scourge on the pull, I believe you are directing this at the other poster. Your math shows (Unmend > Low Blow > Hard Slash > Spinning Slash > Power Slash) is superior to (Unmend > Plunge > Scourge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash). I was speaking to the viability of (Unmend > Plunge > Hard Slash > Low Blow > Spinning Slash > Power Slash). Using your numbers puts it at 450 > 350 > 870 > 1650 meaning it generates an additional 270 (+100*2.7) potency of enmity in the 2nd and 3rd GCD. I fully admit I could be mistaken on that math however. Regardless, your main point is that you should save potency for when you are outside of Grit. As I said I agree with this, however I disagree that gains from front loading potency are negligible in the fight long term. Extra enmity generated in Grit through potency will absolutely decrease the risk of having to waste MP reactivating Grit or to waste GCDs on Gritless Power Slash Combos.
2. I’m afraid you assume too much. I mained WAR throughout 2.0 and made the character attached to this account after taking a long break from the game. Also, I don’t use plunge on pulls. I tend to save it until I’m ready to apply Scourge because it helps me keep better uptime on my DoTs (using the Plunge ability as a sort of hotbar timer). As I said I was only pushing back against your claims to glean a better understanding. Thank you though for your constructive criticism and for not being condescending. The comment that you quoted was only a counter claim to what you said about the melee dps. You criticized Plunge pulling because it adds wasted time to the melee’s ability to do damage, but neglect any time wasted between using Unmend and reaching the target for the second GCD.
3. I guess instead of saying “competent dps” I should just say you will not always be able to get away with just one PS combo in Grit. If you don’t want to have to go back into Grit or use PS outside of Grit (and we seem to agree you shouldn’t) it is likely going to take more than that to ensure you do not have to.

[JackFross]

An alternative is unmend, wait about half a second, then plunge into hard slash. The boss will run to the position you plunged from, you will not clip a gcd, extra burst enmity, and you don't lose a fraction of plunge potency from waiting. The differences are very small obviously, but it is misleading to say that using plunge at the start is always wrong. From a melee dps perspective it is the same for the case I mentioned because the boss will move at the same speed and end up in the same location.

I agree about opening with scourge in grit being weaker; it is a mistake I make too often out of reflex because of its priority in general.

Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

1. I don’t think I advocated the use of Scourge on the pull, I believe you are directing this at the other poster.

Nope, that was someone else.
Yes, it would be +270 enmity gain in the second GCD to do it that way, +540 overall gain before the end of the first Power Slash combo.

The thing is that the total enmity generated by the lesser rotation is:
(450 + 150 + 100 + 770 + 1650) * 2.7 = 8424
The modified would be 8424 + 540 = 8964 = +6% enmity generated in the first 4 GCDs.

AKA: Not a noteworthy gain. A gain, absolutely, but not a gain that I would sacrifice DPS for. Extra enmity frontloaded into Grit is good, but it's much more beneficial to do this by feeding a second Power Slash before dropping Grit than spending a Plunge on the pull. You absolutely /can/ use your other stuff in Grit to start, sure. It might not even be a loss, if you would end up seeing +1 of said skill in the fight over what the guy who holds them sees. However, Plunge still shouldn't be between Unmend and Hard Slash.

2. I’m afraid you assume too much.

I'm not neglecting that time. I'm saying that time does not exist. There's no delay at all between Unmend and Hard Slash, GCD-wise. When the GCD is re-filled, you're hitting Hard Slash and you're within range of the boss. Always. I mean, I do that on PLD all the time (and admittedly have not tanked much on DRK recently) and Shield Lob > Fast Blade is identical to Unmend > Hard Slash.

3. I guess instead of saying “competent dps” I should just say you will not always be able to get away with just one PS combo in Grit. If you don’t want to have to go back into Grit or use PS outside of Grit (and we seem to agree you shouldn’t) it is likely going to take more than that to ensure you do not have to.

Yup! And I agree with you. I think in even gear, you'd need so few additional PS out of Grit that it becomes a gain to drop after one initial combo, but I can't realistically test that with my current DRK.

Yes I am aware of that. I was only speaking about DRKs who were MT. Considering the first clear of the newest content came from Gilgamesh I started there. I looked at the top three DRKs for The Cuff of the Son: all MTs, all use Dark Passenger on the pull. Number one & three in Quickthinks Allthoughts: MTs, Dark Passenger on the pull. This and other trends followed throughout the data.

I will point out a few things here:
1. DP is 150 potency, Plunge is 200.
2. DP is not a gap closer - it doesn't modify the pull in any notable way other than injecting additional potency.
3. DP is a magic attack. It gets no bonus from Storm's Eye or Dancing Edge. Plunge does.

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

[Chronons]

Note that I never once said "do not use Dark Passenger on the pull" - it is significantly less of a loss to use that as an additional off-gcd Enmity boost in grit than to burn Plunge there.

Oh, I did not mean to imply that you did. Apologies if it came off that way. Its just something I noticed when I dug into fflogs. I am thankful for the discussion as it is what lead me to seek out this information. Also, thank you for all of the good info on Plunge pulling. As I said I don't typically do it, bc I like having it for DoT management, but I know a lot who do. Will be directing them here in the future so they may benefit from your wisdom as well.

[tremor24]

Yeah, I mean - I don't see the issue with that, outside of the issue of the argument for doing it this way being really weak.

You're arguing, as I've shown, over amounts of enmity gain that are less than even the weakest attack from any DPS class going full tilt. +100, +200 - every basic skill from every Job beats these two numbers. It's not a notable gain, but it is a substantial loss of offensive potency. And that's basically the bottom line. It's for sure a personal preference choice in your suggestion and the other ones, but that personal preference is

1. Marginal hate gains that will have literally 0 impact on how long I need to use Grit
or
2. DPS gains by using my main dps off-gcd attacks after Grit has been dropped and Slashing debuff has been applied.

I personally think the cons of 1 are significant, where the cons of 2 are not, but meh. As long as you're not using Plunge to tank a boss at the far north of the map where it spawns, I ain't got anything negative to say about your choice outside of "I personally do not agree with that decision, but you are welcome to make it."

I do not believe it is as much of a dps loss that you think for a couple of reasons. You are front loading an off-gcd attack by at least 4 gcds during a time you won't be doing anything else anyway. Which is at a minimum 1/3 of a plunge wasted, and it can not reliable fit with any other off-gcd's due to jump delay so other abilities are being delayed, at a minimum blood weapon is delayed. So, 0.8 damage due to grit vs. 1.21 from slashing debuff and trick attack minus 1/3 of a 1.1 potency later assuming just slashing debuff is about 0.84 compared to using it right after unmend. Yeah, you may also get litany, but the damage difference is negligible and at the cost of delaying another off-gcd. Overall it seems to be a wash and front loading plunge after unmend in this way is practically unnoticeable. I simply disagree that it is a substantial loss of dps potency as you mentioned.

It is approximately equal damage if delayed by four gcds, and if you end up even delaying it one more than four gcds then you are losing dps.