Pros and Cons of each Healer Role

[Ghishlain]

I think I'll preface this response by saying I feel you're being particularly argumentative about my posts and comment that I feel that no matter how I respond, you'll find a different detail to nitpick. But here I go to attempt to respond.

Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?

I will also preface this particular response to indicate that I have enough knowledge of the DPS and tank classes to gauge what buffs to give as an AST when cards are drawn but not the intimate knowledge and comparisons some players have in their "career choice".

I'll start with me redefining what I mean by sustain after giving the day to think about. In my opinion and thoughts, sustained DPS means DPS that's consistent and doesn't fluctuate too much. SCH, MNK, and SMN would all fall into this category as their kits emphasize this. They don't spike as often as the other jobs but can maintain good and consistent output. NIN can sorta fall into this category too with more readily available spikes via Ninjutsus.

Now, if you were to look at the potential output of the jobs, MNK by design is able to output a higher DPS level than SMN as per S-E's SSS DPS checks. If I were to answer your query above, I would say just this, MNK has higher potential DPS out of the jobs who's kit embody a sustained and consistent damage. Which I know doesn't answer your question but at the same time, to put bluntly, your question makes no sense to me either.

In terms of the context to the comment I made on the 2nd page regarding "highest sustained DPS", you can combine my thoughts about the sustained DPS I mentioned above with the fact SCHs don't consume MP any where as readily as their AST or WHM counterparts. This is because SCH's best healing abilities are either free (fairy) or tied to a resource that is renewed every minute (Aetherflow). Thus, over the course of a long fight, WHM and AST will have far less resources to consume for their DPS compared to SCH.

If resources were of no issue, then yes I would say WHM and AST DPS > SCH DPS. But WHM and AST cannot maintain that level of DPS in most high-tier scenarios without dramatically hampering their healing duties. Therefore I stand by my comment that SCH has the highest sustained DPS of the three healers.

So, what would your definition of "sustain" be? Because I certainly don't understand your context of "sustain" in the way you wrote it in your comment.

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Now, about the second half of your post, I will have to disagree with a lot of comments made here and I'll just do it one piece at a time.

IMO the faerie, support kit, insta heals, and the fact that WHM is better suited to be the raw healer, are the major components that put SCH on DPS duty.

I agree with most of this comment (more about my disagreements later).

WHM is really good at doing 1 thing at a time. If it's healing, its DPS tanks. If it's dpsing, its healing tanks.

If you're taking it from a literal game mechanic sense, this is true. A WHM is either healing or DPSing.

However, consider it from a different context.

What allows the SCH flexibility is the fact they have a Fairy that assists in their healing duty. You can basically say the Fairy is a targetable HoT (it casts every three seconds and has a similar potency level to most HoTs in the game). While a WHM literally has to spend their GCDs either healing or DPSing, it doesn't mean they aren't healing while they DPS or they aren't DPSing while they heal.

Regen provides healing over time similar to the Fairy at the cost of one GCD. The WHM can be DPSing while Regen is ticking, allowing it to perform both duties at once. In fact, Regen + Asylum (also on GCD) provides more healing / tick than SCH fairy will.

Likewise, similar to SCHs, WHM can provide DPS while healing in the form of their three DoTs. Accuracy issues aside, this isn't much different than how SCHs would place DoTs on their target then shift back to healing while their DoTs do their work.

SCHs may have more advantages in the multi-task department due to the GCD-free Fairy, but conceptually WHM and SCH would use similar tactics to optimize their HPS and DPS output.

SCH isn't impacted as harshly as WHM. If it's dpsing, that faerie is still tickin.

See comment about Regen (and Asylum / Medica II if desired) above regarding this. WHM loses a GCD, yes, but it's not a harsh impact to their overall play.

SCH also has access to many skills that don't have penalties while CS is up.

WHM has the only heal in the game that actually heals while in Cleric Stance - Benediction. SCH gets Sacred Soil, Eye for an Eye, Supervirus, and Stoneskin (if CC'd). WHM gets Stoneskin, Benediction, Eye for an Eye (if CC'd), and Virus (if CC'd).

All of those abilities outside of Benediction are mitigation tools and not actual healing tools. If you were to argue healing in CS, WHM wins hands down in the fact they have Benediction.

I'm actually not sure what this comment is trying to say aside from the fact "we can do stuff that helps our healing role while in CS that aren't penalized" but those abilities tend to be minimal impact. If you virus a tank / raid buster, you're still going to need to drop CS to heal afterwards anyway.

When SCH switches to heals, not only do the dots keep ticking, but it's got lustrate and indomitability, which are arguably the best insta-heals in the game, rdy to go at a moment's notice.

WHM also gets the same "DoT ticking" benefit as SCH does. WHM also gets Tetragrammaton and Assize though, yes, you can make a case that the cooldowns on these abilities do hamper their desirability.

It's funny because I would argue Essential Dignity being the best single target insta-heal in the game due to 40s CD and having a scaling potency that can exceed Lustrate / Tetragrammaton.

Will not argue Indomitability is the best AoE heal in the game though. But it certainly doesn't mean WHM doesn't have their own equals either.

It's amazing in that slot, but not because of superior deeps.

So... when did I ever mention that SCH is amazing in the off-heal slot only because of their DPS? If you believe I implied that then you're taking my comment regarding sustained DPS well out of context.

SCH is awesome for the job because it's more flexible, and because it lets the WHM direct most/all of its efforts into 1 thing.

Yes, I would agree that SCH has the most healing flexibility thanks to their kit and their options. It is how the kit was designed after all.

[winsock]

I think I'll preface this response by saying I feel you're being particularly argumentative about my posts and comment that I feel that no matter how I respond, you'll find a different detail to nitpick. But here I go to attempt to respond.
...
Now, about the second half of your post, I will have to disagree with a lot of comments made here and I'll just do it one piece at a time.

You nearly split my post into 8 segments...
most of them, individual sentences....
and call me nitpicky... lol

You stated:
"[SCH]+Highest sustained DPS of the three"
Which is false.

Kinda like how I said Gravity is lvl 60 earlier. It was false.

So, what would your definition of "sustain" be?

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

...[snipped book about switching back and forth]...

I think we both agree that SCH has better flexibility.
Breaking down the actual differences might be a fun discussion at some point though!

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

...This is not what sustained DPS is

If you did 1000 dps in the first 30 seconds and 0 dps on the next 30 seconds, you average at 500 dps. But you completely dropped your damage on the last half. How would this kind of damage contribution be considered "sustained"? Even if you throw in the "rotation gimmick", we're healers: What rotation?!. We set up some DoTs and we're done and if we have free time, we use filler spells.

[winsock]

...This is not what sustained DPS is

If you did 1000 dps in the first 30 seconds and 0 dps on the next 30 seconds, you average at 500 dps. But you completely dropped your damage on the last half. How would this kind of damage contribution be considered "sustained"? Even if you throw in the "rotation gimmick", we're healers: What rotation?!. We set up some DoTs and we're done and if we have free time, we use filler spells.

This is a common MMO thing. Your sustain is your average, your burst are your peaks throughout the average

In a general class comparison of sustained dps, you compare the dps from the rotation.
MNK sustain is greater than DRG sustain, even if that's not true for x particular fight cause the back positional isnt open for y reason, or you just stand around and dont dps. Again, we're talking about generic comparisons

And yes, healers have dps rotations

[Ghishlain]

You nearly split my post into 8 segments...
most of them, individual sentences....
and call me nitpicky... lol

No, I responded to your entire post in piecemeal fashion since there were enough individual and different comments/points you were making to respond in such a fashion.

You were taking one point out of a thirty-two point list I created of pros and cons.

You stated:
"[SCH]+Highest sustained DPS of the three"
Which is false.

Kinda like how I said Gravity is lvl 60 earlier. It was false.

Would you prefer I reword that line "Highest sustained DPS in high-tier practical application of the three"? Because at this moment you are arguing a semantic of the definition of "sustained DPS". I could also reword it to be "Highest consistent DPS of the three" if that's suitable too.

With that being said, I don't think many people would argue SCH has a better sustained DPS in practical application versus WHM. WHM does offer better potential in shorter fights like Faust / Hummelfaust in A5S and the gauntlet style fights in A6S, but otherwise SCH pretty much over powers WHM DPS by at least 10% at the highest tier of play (more when you start getting lower in the skill chain).

I'll say this though.

Average DPS from DPS rotation.

You are technically not wrong about this. But I would think you would have the sense to understand the context I was referring too.

When I asked six of my MMO friends how they would define "Sustained DPS", five of them responded with some variation of "A DPS that has consistent output throughout the fight". The sixth said that and also mentioned how it could be the average DPS of the fight because a Sustained DPS' average doesn't sway too far from that line. Which I agree with.

In other words, we're both right. I'll leave it at that.

Breaking down the actual differences might be a fun discussion at some point though!

I'm not sure if I want to get into this discussion at the very moment >>; There's a lot of context to consider and on top of that each kit is situationally better pending on the fight, party composition, and party skill level.

Let alone the fact we seem to disagree far too much on petty semantics since we seem have gone through different cultures of MMOs leading to the massive difference in opinion and semantics we already have to begin with. I've personally never heard of average DPS refereed to as sustained DPS. Only as it is written - average.

It would probably be terrible for us to dissect kits because of the above. lol.. You might have more luck with someone else though.