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  1. #101
    Player
    winsock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    788
    Character
    Chaosgrimm Winsock
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine View Post
    ...This is not what sustained DPS is

    If you did 1000 dps in the first 30 seconds and 0 dps on the next 30 seconds, you average at 500 dps. But you completely dropped your damage on the last half. How would this kind of damage contribution be considered "sustained"? Even if you throw in the "rotation gimmick", we're healers: What rotation?!. We set up some DoTs and we're done and if we have free time, we use filler spells.
    This is a common MMO thing. Your sustain is your average, your burst are your peaks throughout the average

    In a general class comparison of sustained dps, you compare the dps from the rotation.
    MNK sustain is greater than DRG sustain, even if that's not true for x particular fight cause the back positional isnt open for y reason, or you just stand around and dont dps. Again, we're talking about generic comparisons

    And yes, healers have dps rotations
    (3)
    Last edited by winsock; 04-23-2016 at 01:45 PM.

  2. #102
    Player
    Anienai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Camp Bluefrog
    Posts
    1,600
    Character
    Anienai Talenca
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 100
    Astro = Fun
    Sch = Fun
    WHM = Boring as ----
    (1)
    The price of solving everything is everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Illmaeran View Post
    Roe, no question. Why be a kitten when you can be a goddess?

  3. #103
    Player
    Ghishlain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    2,168
    Character
    Ghishlain Pyrial
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    You nearly split my post into 8 segments...
    most of them, individual sentences....
    and call me nitpicky... lol
    No, I responded to your entire post in piecemeal fashion since there were enough individual and different comments/points you were making to respond in such a fashion.

    You were taking one point out of a thirty-two point list I created of pros and cons.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    You stated:
    "[SCH]+Highest sustained DPS of the three"
    Which is false.

    Kinda like how I said Gravity is lvl 60 earlier. It was false.
    Would you prefer I reword that line "Highest sustained DPS in high-tier practical application of the three"? Because at this moment you are arguing a semantic of the definition of "sustained DPS". I could also reword it to be "Highest consistent DPS of the three" if that's suitable too.

    With that being said, I don't think many people would argue SCH has a better sustained DPS in practical application versus WHM. WHM does offer better potential in shorter fights like Faust / Hummelfaust in A5S and the gauntlet style fights in A6S, but otherwise SCH pretty much over powers WHM DPS by at least 10% at the highest tier of play (more when you start getting lower in the skill chain).

    I'll say this though.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Average DPS from DPS rotation.
    You are technically not wrong about this. But I would think you would have the sense to understand the context I was referring too.

    When I asked six of my MMO friends how they would define "Sustained DPS", five of them responded with some variation of "A DPS that has consistent output throughout the fight". The sixth said that and also mentioned how it could be the average DPS of the fight because a Sustained DPS' average doesn't sway too far from that line. Which I agree with.

    In other words, we're both right. I'll leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Breaking down the actual differences might be a fun discussion at some point though!
    I'm not sure if I want to get into this discussion at the very moment >>; There's a lot of context to consider and on top of that each kit is situationally better pending on the fight, party composition, and party skill level.

    Let alone the fact we seem to disagree far too much on petty semantics since we seem have gone through different cultures of MMOs leading to the massive difference in opinion and semantics we already have to begin with. I've personally never heard of average DPS refereed to as sustained DPS. Only as it is written - average.

    It would probably be terrible for us to dissect kits because of the above. lol.. You might have more luck with someone else though.
    (0)

  4. #104
    Player
    Powe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Guarding Etro's Throne with Lightning
    Posts
    728
    Character
    Hades Pluto
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    To Lyrica_Ashtine :I put cards second because its not as reliable, but is still better than waiting for a CD you have a 1/6 to 1/5 chance of pulling a ewer card
    (0)

  5. #105
    Player
    Lyrica_Ashtine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    1,132
    Character
    Sadako Yamamura
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Powe View Post
    but is still better than waiting for a CD
    assize is guaranteed 10% mp recovered plus one and a half stone III worth of mp or 1 Medica worth of mp. And have you forgotten that draw is an ability with CD time as well?

    I'm not even going to bother calculating the average on that. Point is, you said that white mage MP recovery is unreliable, but somehow cards at the mercy of RNG is more reliable?
    (4)

  6. #106
    Player
    Fricca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    120
    Character
    Amai Couteau
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    Pros:
    WHM: Cure III, Benediction, Assize, Most HoTs
    AST: Cards, Disable, No cast Single-target Shield, Versatile
    SCH: Fairy, Critlo, Deploy, Supervirus, Most DoTs, Most mobile, Versatile

    Cons:
    WHM: Not-so-versatile
    AST: Least DoTs, Least Ohshit skills
    SCH: Least HoTs
    (0)
    Last edited by Fricca; 04-25-2016 at 02:49 AM.
    Always by your side. . .

  7. #107
    Player
    VanilleFang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,655
    Character
    Estellise Valesti
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Fricca View Post
    Pros:
    WHM: Cure III, Benediction, Assize, Most HoTs
    AST: Cards, Disable, No cast Single-target Shield, Versatile
    SCH: Fairy, Critlo, Deploy, Supervirus, Most DoTs, Most mobile, Versatile

    Cons:
    WHM: Not-so-versatile
    AST: Least DoTs, Least Ohshit skills
    SCH: Least HoTs
    You forgot to include that WHM have the most AoE healing spells of the three (Assize, Asylum, Medica, Medica II, Cure III) as well as Stoneskin II. And buffs from cards can be seen as a positive as well as a negative because... You forgot to mention the RNG aspect of the Astro.
    (1)

  8. #108
    Player Kaurie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    2,427
    Character
    Kaurie Lorhart
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by winsock View Post
    Come on now. MNK can run out of TP before a SMN runs out of MP. Would you rate SMN as having better sustained DPS than MNK?
    I am not 100% sure if this is true? I mean it varies depending on a lot of stuff. That said MNK has the highest sustained DPS according to all FFLogs. Summoner can get serious MP problems (more persistent in 2.4/2.5 than in heavensward). If you have a 10 min fight and the MNK runs out of TP and has 1900 DPS from 1-5 minutes and 300 DPS from 5-10 minutes resulting in a DPS of 1100 and the Summoner has a DPS Of 1500 for the first 5 minutes and 1500 for the 2nd 5 minutes with an average of 1500, then yes - the summoner has better sustained DPS where the Monk had stronger burst. That said, it really isn't the case. I don't play Monk, so I cannot elaborate more on that.

    In terms of SCH and WHM, that is the case. WHM will run out of MP after 5 minutes of pure DPSing whereas the SCH will not (5 minutes is arbitrary here, I haven't tested exactly when WHM will run out of MP). So in a short duration, such as the 3 minute SSS, WHM will win out. In longer fights, where MP is a limiting factor, SCH wins out -> better sustained.
    (0)

  9. #109
    Player
    Llynd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    222
    Character
    Lynk Lloyd
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 70
    And yet, the diff between sch and whm dps on 3 minutes is little, in the order of 80dps. ( and if im not wrong, 3 mn is almost their limit of mana.)

    And yes, sch dps never goes Down, we can do the same amount of dps for an hour if we want ^^)
    (0)

  10. #110
    Player
    winsock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    788
    Character
    Chaosgrimm Winsock
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaurie View Post
    snip
    The key item is that these are generic comparisons. They're intended to outline the advantages and disadvantages of Jobs.

    You can and should file "MP management" under the "pro" category for SCH
    You can and should file "Highest Sustained DPS" under the "pro" category for WHM
    This is by no means trying to say that WHM is always the superior choice for sustained dps.

    On the other hand, saying both that "SCH has the highest sustained" and "SCH is the most flexible" implies that SCH is always the superior choice for sustained dps, which just isn't true.


    One more example:
    if comparing BLM and SMN, you might say BLM has higher sustained DPS, but poorer mobility. That isnt to say that in practice BLM will always have higher dps 100% of the time or that its always superior to SMN. It's only a reflection of the rotation. However, if you were to say SMN has higher sustained DPS based on the scenarios where it can pull better numbers, it misrepresents SMN has being completely superior at both dps and mobility.
    (0)

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