The Omega

[Anonymoose]

Not really trying to make any real point here, just tap-dancing on the scales of debate.

I don't buy it, never will. <...> Humans are the sole agents of their destruction, but also the sole agents of their salvation

Isn't Thordan literally the guy accepting disastrous power from an external source? And then when he turns it back on them, he says:

By our deeds shall the wrongs of antiquity be righted, and man reclaim the reins of history!

Which kind of mirrors:

This day we reclaim the reins of history! This day we rid ourselves of the Ascians forever!

Derplander later joined them, but he didn't ever say we misunderstood their methods, just that the ends do justify the means. The original world must needs be restored, or whatever.

personally, I think the Ascians do little more than take advantage of the notions humans get on their own.

And yet imho this is still true. The Ascians see someone who's about to start running and (if so required) strap a rocket to their back, causing Rocket Man's enemies to become desperate (hopefully desperate enough to summon primals). If Rocket Man's war doesn't start a Calamity, or it looks like he might win, no problem; just give Rocket Man's enemies more power and see where that goes.

Without Ascian involvement, mankind would still have ambition. Wars would be waged. People would die. Empires would rise and fall. But (as far as we've been led to believe) they would never be waging that war with so much power that it would cause a Calamity. The War of the Magi is the only hint we have that it might (so far), and Mhach spent the entire time harnessing the void, same as Allag. Ascian involvement proven? Gods no. Implied? A bit. Especially when 1.0 said that the Sixth Umbral Era had "a cabal of immortal mages" at its center.

We know from Tiamat that the Ascians did, in fact, give technology to entrap Bahamut to the Allagans, and that the immediate result before the earthquake was a time of peace that lasted generations. That sounds like a pretty big backfire to that plan, to me

A nitpick, Crystal Tower led to generations of peace. Dalamud was created at the end of the era, right before the Calamity. And, imho, nothing so much "backfired" as much as "was a chaotic clusterf[kupo]k by design". Everything Allag and the Meracydians did (sometimes with Ascian assistance) led directly to a Rejoining.

Because of the Crystal Tower, the Empire was on the decline - they were desperate to avoid collapse. Suddenly, Allag develops crazy advanced technology (maybe Ascian involvement, maybe not), bringing Xande back from the dead around the same time Azys Lla goes into production. Xande immediately tackles his one regret, having failed to take Meracydia. Faced with total invasion, the Meracydian tribes are desperate; primals (Warring Gods) are summoned (Ascian involvement). At the same time, the citizens of Allag rise up in revolt against Xande's tyranny. Xande is stretched too thin. Desperate, he makes a pact with the Cloud of Darkness and harnesses the power of the void, cutting down the resistance. The Imperial Army slays Bahamut and tears through the Meracydian brood(s). Tiamat's remaining forces are on the brink of annihilation; desperate for salvation and revenge, they summon Bahamut as a primal shade (Ascian involvement). The powers of Darkness can't be sustained - the Crystal Tower is running short of energy.

Suddenly, the Aetherochemical Research Facility develops the means to trap the Triad and eventually Bahamut (Ascian involvement according to Tiamat), hurling him into the sky encased in Dalamud. There wasn't much time between then (probably months, perhaps years, probably not generations) and the appearance of a small band of brave warriors that become beacons of hope and lead the charge against Xande and the Darkness. That's when Xande decides "Screw this, the Cloud can have everything." and discharges Dalamud's entire energy supply in an attempt to throw open the voidgate, ushering in a massive earth-aspected Calamity.

Would Allag have waged war without Ascian intervention? Oh, hells, yeah. They'd have slaughtered thousands. Hundreds of. Millions. But how many layers of Ascian involvement are between "Allag uses advanced aetherophysics and machina in an attempt to build a global empire" and "Xande discharges incalculable amounts of energy directly into the planet's surface from a solar-powered lunar-oribtal weapons platform sustained by a superprimal energy transistor"?

There's probably room for debate.

[Frederick22]

This is my question. What would have happened if Xande was not resurrected? How exacly would have the empire declined?
Could that have caused a calamity?

[Fenral]

That said, I'm not really sure where you're going with this anymore. Hypothetical conjecture aside, my original point was that actually exactly what you're saying. I don't think the Ascians have had nearly as much involvement with the Allagans or Garleans (especially not the Garleans) as most people give them credit for. I'm just drawing a inference for why they haven't been as involved, especially in recent years.

Only meant to shut down the train of thought that the Ascians instigated a calamity from nothing because the Allagans had achieved lasting world piece with the power of Dalamud. I do actually agree with you on the rest, so if any other part of my post indicated that in spite of intent to counter the aforementioned, it's because discussions here aren't really two-sided.

Not really trying to make any real point here, just tap-dancing on the scales of debate.

I actually agree with about 90% of what you said. My only point was that the Ascians aren't the source of conflict, just the enablers. We need to stop (not defeat or kill) them not because humanity would have achieved world peace by now if the evil space aliens hadn't intervened, but because we're perfectly capable of screwing everything up for ourselves without shadowy figures on the corner handing out nukes to whackjobs like Thordan VII.

This is my question. What would have happened if Xande was not resurrected? How exacly would have the empire declined?
Could that have caused a calamity?

Hard to say for sure. Considering they were essentially the Roman Empire with nuclear power, I'd say sooner or later they'd get a Caligula or a Nero (Caesar) with too much power and too many bad ideas and nobody in a position to say no. All it would take is one drunken revel where someone decides to crank up the energy output on Syrcus Tower for a fireworks show and there goes the Empire.

[Kallera]

I somewhat agree with fenral and moose here. with or without Ascians there would still be conflict, and you'd still be hard pressed to tell the desperate, beastman or not, to simply roll over and die cause of metaphysical concepts that fill you and yours with gil and prosperity, but not theirs.

I wanted to make an anlogy, but then it started going into wierd territory, and I felt it seemed too harsh and hopeless for a critique.