DF Tank Experience

[Jpec07]

Hi OP, and welcome to the forums! These are some really frustrating scenarios you're putting forth, but hopefully we can help you figure out how to cope with them like we have.

1) DPS who pull before the tank (and healers who heal them before I can flash them off them)

This bothers me, too. So often, enmity and hate feel like an arms race, and when DPS get a head start, it can be especially difficult to pull off of them. If it's obvious it was a mistake, or if it only happens once, I'll usually forgive it, but more than that, I start to get into the mentality of "if you wanted to pull, you should have queued as a tank." I usually ask nicely if someone keeps doing it to please let me pull, and that works ~80% of the time. If they get mouthy, though, or just ignore me, I start letting them tank whatever I can't get off of them.

2) After initial shield lob and I'm waiting for mobs to gather @me I see aoe's/heals before mobs are in flash range

This one is less annoying, but does still cause problems. If a healer throws Regen on me right after the pull starts, there's a good chance the first tick is going to rip hate off of me. It's one thing if they stand still, because then I can run to them, cover them, and flash until my enemy list is lit up red, but if they start running around, it can make things horrible. And what's worse is that sometimes, right clicking on the buff doesn't take it off.

AoE is less of a problem, though, because usually the potency is low enough to where regaining the hate isn't too difficult. I usually just position myself just outside, and try to time Flash such that it will hit the mobs as they run past, and it usually works.

3) After initial shield lob enemy the does an aoe but I see dps and healer are already attacking it from outside the aoe while i'm running out of it.

Unless it's at the beginning of a fight, you're not very likely at all to lose hate during the time you're dodging telegraphs and AoEs. Most of the time you'll have a comfortable lead, and unless they save their offensive cooldowns specifically for that point, they're not going to be able to take the lead. It might be annoying that they get to do stuff while you need to dodge, but it shouldn't really impact your gameplay too much.

Also worth noting: once the AoE market disappears, it usually means you're safe to resume your position. The animation might look like it's hitting you, but whether or not you're hit is calculated when the castbar/marker disappear. This gives you a few more moments during enemies' animation locks to keep things in place.

4)Dps who don't look at their threat gauge and have no idea when to back off, or switch mobs, or don't even use enmity reducing abilities at all.

Usually if I'm struggling (which happens increasingly less frequently), I'll throw the DPS in question a compliment, and ask if they can help me out. Something like, "Daaaaaaaamn, Daniel! Back at it again with the leet deeps! Making me work for my hate! Mind helping me out a little?" Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But in all situations, I take responsibility for enmity. Even if they should be paying attention and being prepared to own up for their massive numbers, most DPS will think it's not their problem, because "enmity is the tanks' job." Which is a stupid attitude, but I digress.

5) Players who run away from the tank when they have hate.

This is an unfortunate side-effect of open-world content vs. group content. When a DPS or healing job gets hate in the wild, they survive by kiting. The game trains them to run away when they're being attacked, despite it being opposite of what they're supposed to do in a dungeon setting.

6)Two single target dps in a dungeon who don't attack tank's target. When there are specifically aoe dps present then I will spread my combo on all enemies and flash more too though.

If you marked, they have no excuse; if you didn't mark, you have no right to complain.

Even when marking, though, I am astonished by how many DPS jobs completely forget how to count. Sometimes it isn't a problem, though, and if that's the case and I can hold hate without their cooperation, I'll leave them alone. If it IS a problem, I'll usually start asking in general if people can follow the markers. If it persists, I'll call out the offenders by name. If it still persists, I start the vote-kick.

7)A cancerous mentality that if anything goes wrong it's the tanks fault. If you stand back and let the party wipe on a dps pull you get booted. However if you clean up people's mess by flashing and provoking, positioning enemies attacks away from people, and covering people who are about to die, it's still your fault.

And you've arrived at the main reason why people don't want to tank. It isn't true that tanks are solely responsible for the smoothness of a run, or that tanks should be blamed whenever something goes awry. A good tank can sometimes prevent things from going poorly, and can clean up others' messes, but group success relies on everyone in the group. A great tank can sometimes save a run, but so can a great player in any other role.

No, enmity is 100% the tank's problem. If you have trouble with it at any level, either you're incredibly undergeared (as in you haven't even tried to keep up by buying NPC stuff) or don't know what your skills do. Healers should have literally no chance of pulling aggro <26 unless you're not generating any enmity at all.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Tank gameplay deals primarily with enmity. When we go through an encounter, it is what we focus on. However, it is something DPS jobs and healers need to be conscious of, as well, because if you aren't a tank and you get and hold hate, there is a very good chance you will die, which places a 100% damage debuff on you until you come back to life. Tanks focus on it primarily, but this absolutely does not mean DPS and healers get to ignore it. That's why they have enmity-dumping tools.

Tanks are good at generating enmity, but they are not gods.

[Nezkeys79]

Jpec07with regards to your reply about 3) ...

"Unless it's at the beginning of a fight"

Yes I'm talking specifically about the very first shield lob at the start of a battle when the enemy puts out a large aoe and I run out so the only enmity I've established is shield lob....when the aoe fades a few times I've seen the monster run to the dps. It's not a huge problem I just wish they would see me running away and realise all I've done is shield lob. Now what I do is just stay inside them all if that happens at the start, and let some retard tell me I can't dodge aoes

[Rongway]

If you marked, they have no excuse; if you didn't mark, you have no right to complain.

Even when marking, though, I am astonished by how many DPS jobs completely forget how to count.

Something that a lot of tanks forget or perhaps don't even realize is that for almost every class, including melee DDs, the highest potency per GCD action is a DoT. If you want the DDs to do their jobs, you can't expect them to focus on one mob. You want the DDs to kill things fast, and they'll die fastest if the DDs DoT the accessory targets and then kill the one with the lowest DoT durations.

If you mark the mobs, you should still be generating AoE hate for several GCDs while the DDs set up their DoTs. Don't expect two DDs to abandon the opportunity to use three to six 300~500 potency-per-GCD actions each to follow your marking scheme when your single target combo only does 200 potency per GCD.

[Nezkeys79]

Don't expect two DDs to abandon the opportunity to use three to six 300~500 potency-per-GCD actions each to follow your marking scheme when your single target combo only does 200 potency per GCD.

If you are on the cusp of claiming aggro and you do an action that you know won't kill the enemy quickly and will have you and the healer get hate it's not worth a potential wipe. A lot of dps in DF just button mash from what I've seen so prob have no idea how to control their enmity. The main focus isn't to get a bit more dps and stroke your epeen imo. The most important thing is making sure the tank keeps enmity at all times (unless you pulling it for a second means nothing cause the mob is like 5% hp or something) and that the healer is only healing primarily the tank, even if that means the dd's do slightly less damage. There is no excuse for not looking at your threat level period regardless of your job. Dead dps = no dps. dead healer = dead tank

[Rongway]

If you are on the cusp of claiming aggro and you do an action that you know won't kill the enemy quickly and will have you and the healer get hate it's not worth a potential wipe.

If there are hate issues, and the healer is about to take a mob off you, you're not flashing enough.

The main focus isn't to get a bit more dps and stroke your epeen imo. The most important thing is making sure the tank keeps enmity at all times

BRD
Venomous Bite (DoT) on three mobs: 930 potency
Windbite (DoT) on three mobs: 990 potency
Later, 50% of DoT crit ticks grant a free, oGCD attack, 100 potency per mob.

Average GCD: 320 potency, before considering free oGCD attacks


DRG
Phlebotomize (DoT) on three mobs: 1414 potency
Chaos Thrust combo (DoT): 1150 potency
Full Thrust combo: 816 potency

Phlebotomize advantage over Full Thrust combo, per GCD: 199 potency


MCH
Lead Shot (DoT) on three mobs: 1470 potency
Optimistic CleanShot-SlugShot-CleanShot with ammo: 640 potency

Lead Shot advantage over optimistic combo, per GCD: 276 potency


MNK
Touch of Death (DoT) on three mobs: 891 potency
Bootshine-TrueStrike-Demolish (DoT): 836 potency
Boothshine-TrueStrike-SnapPunch: 572 potency

MNK maths complicated by Greased Lightning


NIN
Mutilate on three mobs: 1296 potency
Aeolian Edge combo: 804 potency

Mutilate advantage over Aeolian Edge combo, per GCD: 164


PLD
Rage of Halone combo with Shield Oath: 518 potency
Average GCD: 172 potency

It's not "a bit more". It's a lot more. If you give up one Rage of Halone combo to use three Flashes instead, you give up 518 potency in exchange for 984 potency with 2xNIN or 1656 potency with 2xMCH, on top of what they would be doing with a 1-at-a-time scheme.

Do your job and flash more, so they can do theirs.

[Yuni_Queen]

Tank gameplay deals primarily with enmity. When we go through an encounter, it is what we focus on. However, it is something DPS jobs and healers need to be conscious of, as well, because if you aren't a tank and you get and hold hate, there is a very good chance you will die, which places a 100% damage debuff on you until you come back to life. Tanks focus on it primarily, but this absolutely does not mean DPS and healers get to ignore it. That's why they have enmity-dumping tools.

This is a good clarification of what was the problem here.
It is Tanks job to hold threat, and if lost, only tanks fault.
Awerness is a dps/healer party members also a thing. however, we can't punish them for lack of this awerness. Bah, we can't say, its their fault.
It's like using Cover skill. Kind tank will use this skill to help healer during though time, but no healer should require it.

[Noxifer]

It is Tanks job to hold threat, and if lost, only tanks fault.

I respectfully disagree with that statement of yours. Yes, it's the tank's job to hold enmity. But there are situations where little can be done about losing enmity. In particular at lvl 50 and 60, where it's possible to outgear a new tank by a lot. Sure, it's easier to get lvl 50 gear now, just by finishing Job quests and progressing through MSQ, but it still takes you through plenty of instances with "sub-par" gear. Fortunately, most of these are 8-man duties, so unless you're extremely unlucky the other tank is synched down (and thus i130+, not sure if it's just 130 after the latest adjustments) instead of i90 or thereabouts.
Yes, you can buy i115 gear off the MB, but depending on world that can be really expensive -- especially accessories. And unless you get them in HQ, they're worse than i90.

(Frequent Medica2 use during certain phases of T9 also come to mind... More than one time, the boss came back to kick the healers/dps in the face instead of the MT. And since the boss is untargetable until then, there is very little the tank can do about it.)

It's a bit like cleaning the floor with someone stalking you with mud-covered shoes. It's your responsibility to clean up, but is it your fault it's next to impossible? ^^;

[Aquaslash]

I respectfully disagree with that statement of yours. Yes, it's the tank's job to hold enmity. But there are situations where little can be done about losing enmity. In particular at lvl 50 and 60, where it's possible to outgear a new tank by a lot.

I can attest to this. I recall many a neverfun run where I've ripped hate off a fresh 60 like it was child's play. It also happens during hunts semi frequently.

These deeps don't play no games...

[Yuni_Queen]

It's a bit like cleaning the floor with someone stalking you with mud-covered shoes. It's your responsibility to clean up, but is it your fault it's next to impossible?;

You got my heart with this line. xD

While i wholeheartedly agree that holding hate with big-weenie-dps and healer overhealing with burning passion is absolutely an unfair fight, the only thing dps/healer could do is to pop some shroud or quelling strikes... if they feel like it. literally, we can't expect other party members to watch out for enmity generation. Sure, it is common sense for me, that i switch targets to do not get hit in the face, but it is not written down in "How to Big-weenie-DPS - guide". DPS not using quelling strikes or switching targets is like tank not using tank stance to generate enmity from bosses - generally possible, but why making things so hard?