DF Tank Experience

[Noxifer]

It is Tanks job to hold threat, and if lost, only tanks fault.

I respectfully disagree with that statement of yours. Yes, it's the tank's job to hold enmity. But there are situations where little can be done about losing enmity. In particular at lvl 50 and 60, where it's possible to outgear a new tank by a lot. Sure, it's easier to get lvl 50 gear now, just by finishing Job quests and progressing through MSQ, but it still takes you through plenty of instances with "sub-par" gear. Fortunately, most of these are 8-man duties, so unless you're extremely unlucky the other tank is synched down (and thus i130+, not sure if it's just 130 after the latest adjustments) instead of i90 or thereabouts.
Yes, you can buy i115 gear off the MB, but depending on world that can be really expensive -- especially accessories. And unless you get them in HQ, they're worse than i90.

(Frequent Medica2 use during certain phases of T9 also come to mind... More than one time, the boss came back to kick the healers/dps in the face instead of the MT. And since the boss is untargetable until then, there is very little the tank can do about it.)

It's a bit like cleaning the floor with someone stalking you with mud-covered shoes. It's your responsibility to clean up, but is it your fault it's next to impossible? ^^;

[Aquaslash]

I respectfully disagree with that statement of yours. Yes, it's the tank's job to hold enmity. But there are situations where little can be done about losing enmity. In particular at lvl 50 and 60, where it's possible to outgear a new tank by a lot.

I can attest to this. I recall many a neverfun run where I've ripped hate off a fresh 60 like it was child's play. It also happens during hunts semi frequently.

These deeps don't play no games...

[Yuni_Queen]

It's a bit like cleaning the floor with someone stalking you with mud-covered shoes. It's your responsibility to clean up, but is it your fault it's next to impossible?;

You got my heart with this line. xD

While i wholeheartedly agree that holding hate with big-weenie-dps and healer overhealing with burning passion is absolutely an unfair fight, the only thing dps/healer could do is to pop some shroud or quelling strikes... if they feel like it. literally, we can't expect other party members to watch out for enmity generation. Sure, it is common sense for me, that i switch targets to do not get hit in the face, but it is not written down in "How to Big-weenie-DPS - guide". DPS not using quelling strikes or switching targets is like tank not using tank stance to generate enmity from bosses - generally possible, but why making things so hard?

[Noxifer]

4)Dps who don't look at their threat gauge and have no idea when to back off, or switch mobs, or don't even use enmity reducing abilities at all.

TBH, most jobs/classes don't get their enmity-reducing abilities until... 36-ish? (Unless they're cross-classing them and don't prioritize other skills first.) So sure, if you end up in Qarn, you could expect Bards & Dragoons to use Quelling/Elusive, but before that, it's not certain they'll have them. And from Cutter's Cry and up, all tank classes can have their tank stance available, so by that point the issue has mostly gone away. (Until you end up at level 50 dungeons and don't have i110+ gear, and then when you end up at lvl60 with non-max gear.)
Checked it up, and Bards get theirs at 34 (so possible if they're max allowed level in Brayflox), Dragoons at 35 (job quest) and Conjurer/White Mage at 38. I think those are the only ones available. The only one crossclassable is Quelling Strikes (BRD), so... ^^;

That said, it definitely is partly the DDs' responsibility to stay below the tank's aggro. Of course, if it happens to be a "my sub, my gameplay" tank it's not easy, but... ideally you should switch target (if possible), or hold back a little if you end up on orange. You know, maybe not kick B4B or Raging Strikes just then and keep slammin' the mob till it breaks.

One thing that annoys me is that there's no equivalent on the tank's side for the "almost about to gain aggro". If there at least was a, say, red arrow pointing downwards, to indicate that one or more players had orange on that mob, it'd help the tank with reestablishing aggro on those mobs. Instead, you don't get a clue (unless you're on that mob) until it goes orange and peels off for a DD or the healer.

[Khalithar]

You can edit the other text in to your OP to bypass the character limit.

Editing in my actual reply to your post:

1. This is annoying I agree, usually when the dps do that I let them have it, if the healer heals them and pull aggro and takes it I will take the mobs from them. But if a dps pulls for me I will (without exception) let them die and say "oh I'm sorry, you pulled the mobs so I thought you wanted to tank," it usually teaches them a lesson or it doesn't and I let them die until they leave or get the point.

2. I suggest running towards the mobs while shield lobbing rather than waiting for them to get to you.

3. You should always have enough time for a Flash or two before any sort of telegraphs go out. I can't think of any enemy that opens with a telegraph to the point where you don't have time to do even a single aoe by the time you reach them.

4. Depends on the dps gear and the dungeon. Random example: A brd in a lowbie dungeon like satasha can pretty much rip threat off any tank with just their basic attacks as they have extremely high damage (relatively speaking) at that level, if dps are pulling threat that fast but the mob is also dying that fast, I say just let the dps take it and focus on another mob. There's a good chance they'll be able to finish it before it matters.

5. Agree.

6. All you can really do is mark the targets, if that doesn't work, ask politely, if that doesn't work, well then there's a good chance you'll just have to deal with it unfortunately.

7. I rarely see this attitude, but if it happens that's unfortunate.

As for what you do on trash pulls, I played pld a lot before switching to Drk and I would always say Flash at least 2-3 times at the beginning of any pull and then spread your Halone combo. I would also prioritize comboing the target dying fastest as that is generally the target that the dps might pull off you. For your additional stuff.

1. Good policy.
2. I say use a shield lob immediately after voke for an enemy that peels THEN Flash when it gets back.
3. Good idea.
3. You put 3 twice.
4. Good.
5. Cover only works on physical attacks, if the enemy is using magic based AoE you're wasting it.

[Nezkeys79]

So the one time I said "oh sorry I thought you wanted to tank?" to a dps who did that, the healer said this "stop being an arrogant prick and just flash them off him", then the dps said "that, or pull faster". On next pull I tried to be faster but this dps was actually trying to get there before me. On this pull the dps died and the healer was constantly trying to heal them...I used /sit and /cheer on the dps. The party wiped and I got booted. I got back in a party in 10 seconds though and never lost hate once and nobody died. In one dungeon I constantly kept cleaning up a dps puller, covered multiple people several times, and made sure the enemies were facing away from the party...and at the end got no commendations so meh.

[Nezkeys79]

3. You put 3 twice.

ty. edited

[Nezkeys79]

sorry for the multiple posts but the maximum text for one post is pretty low on this site. So yeah...I don't wanna say that it's just bad dps and healers on DF because I'm sure bad tanks exist as well. And for what it's worth I've seen some very good dps who do obscene amounts of damage and still never seem to pull hate and the fights are over in seconds. Then there are good healers who just have me topped up practically the whole fight and I never drop below 50% ever, and they somehow never seem to pull hate either. In these types of parties provoke immediately brings hate back and keeps it. In some it doesn't and that has to be a DPS continually attacking same mob, and while I'm trying to wrestle for hate...im losing it on something else for example.

[Khalithar]

and while I'm trying to wrestle for hate...im losing it on something else for example.

Use Flash more at the beginning and try to keep your eyes on the threat meter for the mobs losing the most HP and you should be fine.

[Nezkeys79]

Use Flash more at the beginning and try to keep your eyes on the threat meter for the mobs losing the most HP and you should be fine.

I guess I'll try flashing more but I kind of hate it when the dungeon just becomes a "empty your mp with flash spam" thing. Sometimes even that doesn't cement aggro because I tried it in one dungeon so must have used it like 10 times...and two of them broke away on to the healer. I didn't have Halone in this dungeon. Surely at some point something has to be taken in to account for dps who aren't managing their own threat level? A healer heals instinctively (even though healing bad dps could cause a full party wipe). Pretty sure dps should be checking how much therat they are doing and back off or switch targets in conjunction with any enmity reducing abilities they have?