DF Tank Experience

[Launched]

Sometimes even that doesn't cement aggro because I tried it in one dungeon so must have used it like 10 times...and two of them broke away on to the healer. I didn't have Halone in this dungeon. Surely at some point something has to be taken in to account for dps who aren't managing their own threat level? A healer heals instinctively (even though healing bad dps could cause a full party wipe). Pretty sure dps should be checking how much therat they are doing and back off or switch targets in conjunction with any enmity reducing abilities they have?

No, enmity is 100% the tank's problem. If you have trouble with it at any level, either you're incredibly undergeared (as in you haven't even tried to keep up by buying NPC stuff) or don't know what your skills do. Healers should have literally no chance of pulling aggro <26 unless you're not generating any enmity at all.

[Khalithar]

If you have trouble with it at any level, either you're incredibly undergeared (as in you haven't even tried to keep up by buying NPC stuff) or don't know what your skills do.

I will have to disagree with you here to a certain extent, to be fair, a new gld tank or new mara tank in something like satasha or tam-tara will have a lot of trouble keeping hate off of anyone with a dps job unlocked at the maximum ilevel available even with the best npc gear they can get at the time. Not necessarily saying that's the OP though.

[Nezkeys79]

No, enmity is 100% the tank's problem. If you have trouble with it at any level, either you're incredibly undergeared (as in you haven't even tried to keep up by buying NPC stuff) or don't know what your skills do. Healers should have literally no chance of pulling aggro <26 unless you're not generating any enmity at all.

Well clearly you didn't read my posts because I told you that I have the best HQ gear available to me upon entering any dungeon, and demonstrated I know what all my abilities do

[Nezkeys79]

No, enmity is 100% the tank's problem

Also this comment just displays why DF is like it is. The party is a team effort and everyone has to watch how much enmity they are generating. If you aren't paying attention and hitting the mob as a healer to top up dps(or any other action), before the tank does anything then sigh. If a dps pulls first it's his fault he gains emnity, if you then heal them it's your fault you get emnity. This is fact and arguing against it is folly.

A nice tank will clean up that mess and usually get abused for doing so. Other tanks will let you die in the hope you might learn a lesson(which they never do). Neither of those tanks are to blame in that scenario. Sure it's more of the tank's job overall to maintain enmity but it's not a 100% 0% 0% 0% split. It's up to everyone to watch their threat bar. This just makes it sound like you don't even look at that bar and suggest healers and dps should do the same

[Miss-Bathory]

I solo low lvl Dng's on my main so all my alt jobs have green or pink gear, I always shield lob then flash twice then rotate combo around mobs, I rarely ever lose hate unless they were too far away for the flashes, il also add a flash in in between rotations and if I'm ahead il use a riot blade on the mobs they are not attacking to restore mp, for me this has worked even with synched down job players, although it's always more fun to keep hate with good blm's in the party. I always go with you pull it you tank it.

[Nezkeys79]

I do agree about the fact that if a dd pulls hate and can kill that mob before it matters then that's ok, let them have it. If I see a mob trailing off and it has >20% hp I judge how fast the hp was going down...and I won't waste my time bothering to reclaim that mob if I know it's going to die before they even take any damage, and will keep focusing on the other mobs.

One I forgot about was players that run away from the tank when they have hate. This is incredibly infuriating when shield lob isn't pulling it back, they are just outside of flash range, and provoke is down. What do they think this is going to achieve seriously? You are gonna have to stop and heal at some point and probably get interrupted too. Just run to the tank for fk sake and let them deal with it by covering you and flashing you.

[Nezkeys79]

The only issue is that it makes you look like a bad tank if you say nothing because these people are just like "why is the tank not flashing or lobbing, or attacking the mob I'm on". They really don't consider the option that the tank had just decided to let you tank it because they are fed up with being blamed for their selfish actions. Again though...if you can pull and kill without dying...then cool, but 9/10 they can't.

[Jpec07]

Hi OP, and welcome to the forums! These are some really frustrating scenarios you're putting forth, but hopefully we can help you figure out how to cope with them like we have.

1) DPS who pull before the tank (and healers who heal them before I can flash them off them)

This bothers me, too. So often, enmity and hate feel like an arms race, and when DPS get a head start, it can be especially difficult to pull off of them. If it's obvious it was a mistake, or if it only happens once, I'll usually forgive it, but more than that, I start to get into the mentality of "if you wanted to pull, you should have queued as a tank." I usually ask nicely if someone keeps doing it to please let me pull, and that works ~80% of the time. If they get mouthy, though, or just ignore me, I start letting them tank whatever I can't get off of them.

2) After initial shield lob and I'm waiting for mobs to gather @me I see aoe's/heals before mobs are in flash range

This one is less annoying, but does still cause problems. If a healer throws Regen on me right after the pull starts, there's a good chance the first tick is going to rip hate off of me. It's one thing if they stand still, because then I can run to them, cover them, and flash until my enemy list is lit up red, but if they start running around, it can make things horrible. And what's worse is that sometimes, right clicking on the buff doesn't take it off.

AoE is less of a problem, though, because usually the potency is low enough to where regaining the hate isn't too difficult. I usually just position myself just outside, and try to time Flash such that it will hit the mobs as they run past, and it usually works.

3) After initial shield lob enemy the does an aoe but I see dps and healer are already attacking it from outside the aoe while i'm running out of it.

Unless it's at the beginning of a fight, you're not very likely at all to lose hate during the time you're dodging telegraphs and AoEs. Most of the time you'll have a comfortable lead, and unless they save their offensive cooldowns specifically for that point, they're not going to be able to take the lead. It might be annoying that they get to do stuff while you need to dodge, but it shouldn't really impact your gameplay too much.

Also worth noting: once the AoE market disappears, it usually means you're safe to resume your position. The animation might look like it's hitting you, but whether or not you're hit is calculated when the castbar/marker disappear. This gives you a few more moments during enemies' animation locks to keep things in place.

4)Dps who don't look at their threat gauge and have no idea when to back off, or switch mobs, or don't even use enmity reducing abilities at all.

Usually if I'm struggling (which happens increasingly less frequently), I'll throw the DPS in question a compliment, and ask if they can help me out. Something like, "Daaaaaaaamn, Daniel! Back at it again with the leet deeps! Making me work for my hate! Mind helping me out a little?" Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But in all situations, I take responsibility for enmity. Even if they should be paying attention and being prepared to own up for their massive numbers, most DPS will think it's not their problem, because "enmity is the tanks' job." Which is a stupid attitude, but I digress.

5) Players who run away from the tank when they have hate.

This is an unfortunate side-effect of open-world content vs. group content. When a DPS or healing job gets hate in the wild, they survive by kiting. The game trains them to run away when they're being attacked, despite it being opposite of what they're supposed to do in a dungeon setting.

6)Two single target dps in a dungeon who don't attack tank's target. When there are specifically aoe dps present then I will spread my combo on all enemies and flash more too though.

If you marked, they have no excuse; if you didn't mark, you have no right to complain.

Even when marking, though, I am astonished by how many DPS jobs completely forget how to count. Sometimes it isn't a problem, though, and if that's the case and I can hold hate without their cooperation, I'll leave them alone. If it IS a problem, I'll usually start asking in general if people can follow the markers. If it persists, I'll call out the offenders by name. If it still persists, I start the vote-kick.

7)A cancerous mentality that if anything goes wrong it's the tanks fault. If you stand back and let the party wipe on a dps pull you get booted. However if you clean up people's mess by flashing and provoking, positioning enemies attacks away from people, and covering people who are about to die, it's still your fault.

And you've arrived at the main reason why people don't want to tank. It isn't true that tanks are solely responsible for the smoothness of a run, or that tanks should be blamed whenever something goes awry. A good tank can sometimes prevent things from going poorly, and can clean up others' messes, but group success relies on everyone in the group. A great tank can sometimes save a run, but so can a great player in any other role.

No, enmity is 100% the tank's problem. If you have trouble with it at any level, either you're incredibly undergeared (as in you haven't even tried to keep up by buying NPC stuff) or don't know what your skills do. Healers should have literally no chance of pulling aggro <26 unless you're not generating any enmity at all.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong.

Tank gameplay deals primarily with enmity. When we go through an encounter, it is what we focus on. However, it is something DPS jobs and healers need to be conscious of, as well, because if you aren't a tank and you get and hold hate, there is a very good chance you will die, which places a 100% damage debuff on you until you come back to life. Tanks focus on it primarily, but this absolutely does not mean DPS and healers get to ignore it. That's why they have enmity-dumping tools.

Tanks are good at generating enmity, but they are not gods.

[RecklessLion]

Hmmm for the you pull it you tank it comment becareful with it. Worst case dps pulls keeps aggro and tank. Kind of makes you useless since the dps damage is waaaaaaay higher then ours when use correctly. So keep that in mind. Also as a tank it's our job to keep an eye on the emnity. Dps are not paying attention to the hate meter they're too focus on their rotations to worry about that. While all we as tanks should worry about emnity, cd when need, and then proper rotation for optimal damage. If dps is too high man up and tell the dps sorry you're out damaging my aggro. But even when I was low on ilvl never really had a problem keeping aggro no matter what the content was.

[AriKitae]

You might want to take a moment to examine yourself. I just read a post blaming the healer and DPS for your inability to perform your role as a tank. I know it is hard being a tank, especially when you are starting out and while some of the grievances you aired are legitimate, this "everyone else is to blame" attitude will not make things any easier for you. You will always have areas where you can improve. Always.

It might seem like every DPS you encounter in PUGS is impatient, and it is true to some extent, and understandable to an extent. They waited 15+ minutes to get in the door, and they want to get it done so they can fit in their next 15+ wait and dungeon. If you find that your DPS are pulling ahead or throwing out AoE before your flash, think about how you are contributing to the pacing of the dungeon.

If you are in a pre-Rage of Halone duty, you are also in a pre-Stoneskin/Eye for an Eye dungeon, so there is absolutely no reason why you need to be pausing between pulls (exception: you or healer’s MP is critically low. But if it is your MP that is low, think about how to better manage it next time, if your healer’s MP is low, think about if you stood in too much red or didn’t use CDs). Unless your DPS are using sprint to get ahead of you, you should be beating them to the next pack.

When you get to that pack, take a look at how they are positioned. If they are already clustered, I use Overpower on them without a Tomahawk, and I have seen PLDs use Flash this same way before as well with great results. Usually, however, there will be at least one mob further away than the others. Shield Lob the furthest one, while bee-lining for the rest. Flash the rest while the far one approaches, and flash again while facing the whole pack away from the party as desired. Note how there was no "waiting" involved in my description here? A tank doesn't wait passively for monsters to come to them, a tank is controlling the pack from the second they approach it onward.

If you don't mark, the mob you Shield Lob is usually considered first target by your DPS. That said, DPS will AoE when it is advantageous to do so. That is their job. Rotate your targets. Get a feel for how much hate needs to be built on the primary target before you safely start building hate on the other targets. If you find that you spend more time on one mob, flash before switching targets.

Lastly, I would advise against the “you pulled it you tank it” shtick. Try diplomacy first. “Please allow me to pull the mobs.” A good amount of the time the DPS are pulling on accident because they are eager and the tank is sluggish, so starting out hostile is not the way to go. If you start to see them sprint ahead or they argue, maaaaybe you can start letting them tank things but you can and will probably be kicked at that point. This is because when you “let the deeps tank” and the healer tries to save the day, the healer will get aggro, and you all will wipe. While the deeps is wrong for pulling ahead, you certainly aren’t right by not doing your job.

This is especially true if you do this for packs that you were able to pull yourself but lost aggro on. In my whole tanking career I’ve done “you pulled you tank” once, and that healer was clearly trolling and not performing their role correctly. If you find yourself doing this as often as it sounds, you need to look at what you are doing.