Issue With End Game Raiding

[HylianBebop]

Note: Originally was going to post this here, but freaked out about the character limit. Then posted it on reddit. Reddit peeps explained I could bypass the character limit and suggested I make this post here. So here it is.

I want to preface this by saying this is a completely personal and single-perspective view on the subject of end game raiding, and it might not reflect any one else's experience. However, I really enjoy playing XIV, I have played since ARR Beta (and a bit of 1.0 before that), so I wanted a place to vent that hopefully somebody from the community team would see (even if nothing comes from it).


While I enjoy the story/MSQ of ARR/HW, the things I love most that keep me playing in this game are the EX Primals (especially with mount drops added eventually to them all) and the end game raids (Coil, Alex). I've been actively raiding since 2.1, and been in the static raid structure since just before 2.2 hit starting with T5. Have cleared everything up to A5S, including T9/13/A4S pre-echo, and survived a grueling 4 month period of failing to clear A3S with my original static. Despite feeling infuriated with raiding for a time during that A3S progression, I never quit the game or quit raiding.

Which brings me to today. I switched groups for the first time during A3S because the original group I raided with agreed it wasn't working out, and we should explore other opportunities. I eventually found a new group, and was with them until a few weeks ago when we disbanded at Vortexer on A6S. I am not blaming A6S for what I'm about to complain about, so this isn't a "wah A6S is too hard" thread.

What did happen, though, is our group broke up. Reasons aren't important. However, this is the first time I was group-less during this point in a raid cycle. And for the past nearly 4 weeks, I've tried to find a new group because I want to keep raiding, but have had no luck. The job I want to play in raid, WHM, but it appears they are in an overabundant supply right now. Very few groups are looking for WHMs based on scanning reddit recruitment and the OF recruitment. There were some that were looking, but all required a server transfer, something I was open to, but didn't prefer. I had an established FC that was a big reason for my enjoying the game (the social aspect) + good LSs (more social stuff). I also didn't know any one on these other servers. But the real issue that prevented me from fitting into one of these limited amount of groups was the schedule. And that I think is the crux of this argument I have, my central complaint for raiding now.

Getting 8 people together to do scheduled content is difficult. And when you have content that requires several weeks of practice to clear and people slam their heads against walls for it, it leads to burn out. Couple this with the fact I believe we're just so far into the game's life cycle now that there might be a diminishing pool of veteran raiders willing to run on a schedule every week (and not enough new, incoming players to replenish the ranks), and you can see why it might be getting harder and harder for people to make this work.

Which stinks because right now, I want to raid. I want to be playing the game. But because of these reasons (schedules, limited groups, only wanting to play this job, not wanting to go too far back in progression), I'm getting left out. And for the first time ever, I'm considering canceling my sub until a point where I think I can get back into raiding...if it's not too late (wherein I might just quit the game completely). From your stand point, SE, I hope that troubles you because you have a player seriously wrapped up and invested in this game, and the reason I might one day fill out on that "reason for canceling" is "I wanted to play content, but couldn't".

I get you can't force people to play with you, you can't magically make groups exist. I know you've made the "help" system where cleared players can run with you to get you a clear/practice, but honestly all that system has done is foster groups selling more content/running on alts rather than actively participating in other progression groups. I'm not sure what could be done on this end to help remedy the issue I'm having. You obviously can't unlock the option to "double dip" on rewards each week, and even if you did, existing statics would just clear stuff again to benefit their group. And if you removed the 1/0 chest restriction for previously cleared people helping non-cleared, then more groups would probably try to sell and sell for a higher rate rather than trying to help those looking to get able-bodied people to assist in running raid content.

The other solution I know people will bring up is introduce a third tier for raid content, between the "Story" difficulty and Savage. I thought I heard that isn't what the team is looking to do (at least right now), but no idea if that would be considered in the future. Again, I'm not sure this would entirely solve my dilemma - as I said, I wasn't finding the raid content difficult, it was finding a group to play with.

This got me thinking about what possibly could be done. Then an idea popped into my head - how about introducing smaller team compositions for end game raid. Getting maybe 6 people or even as few as 4 together would be much easier than 8, and would possible allow for more groups to exist, increasing the overall active raid scene. So like, a 4-person version of Alex Savage or Coil? I don't know if this could work, but it was a thought. Obviously this would change a lot of the dynamics, but I know other MMOs (including WoW) have done smaller-group compositions while also offering larger group compositions.

And finally, I totally admit (as I alluded to at the start), this could just be an issue affecting just me or a very small portion of the player base. In a few weeks, things might change, and my perspective will shift. But I still felt the need to say I've not had a great time with XIV the past few weeks simply because I can't raid, and I want to. And if it keeps up too much longer, it might break me and I might finally for the first time stop subbing until I feel like there's a better outlook. Just not sure what to do and am incredibly frustrated.

Thanks if you actually read all of that, hopefully it made some sense, and hopefully it wasn't too selfish/narrow-sighted.

[RickXRolled]

You make some good points. Unfortunately, soon enough the people that don't even raid will come in here and start bashing raiders and raids in general.

[Ragnorak]

I like it. But here comes the bashing gonna get my popcorn

[alimdia]

I think raids needs to be put into DF at the start. This will allow more people to access it.

Heres an idea that could work. Obviously theres flaws etc that people can point out if they want to.

Queue 1:
Only people that have not cleared for the week may join. Need to have cleared before if solo queue. No need to have cleared in a full premade group. Therefore, upon clearing there will always be 2 chests and each person gets a page and you clear that turn for the week. No ilvl requirement

Queue 2:
Anyone can join this queue. No loot. Clearing doesn't change your 'cleared for the week' status if you haven't cleared. Insert some high ilvl requirement.

[CookieMonsta]

I think raids needs to be put into DF at the start. This will allow more people to access it.

Heres an idea that could work. Obviously theres flaws etc that people can point out if they want to.

Queue 1:
Only people that have not cleared for the week may join. Need to have cleared before if solo queue. No need to have cleared in a full premade group. Therefore, upon clearing there will always be 2 chests and each person gets a page and you clear that turn for the week. No ilvl requirement

Queue 2:
Anyone can join this queue. No loot. Clearing doesn't change your 'cleared for the week' status if you haven't cleared. Insert some high ilvl requirement.

There is a problem with DF, especially with difficult Raid content. Lack of Accountability.

[alimdia]

There is a problem with DF, especially with difficult Raid content. Lack of Accountability.

Thats why the 2nd queue has no loot. So after a while, after the novelty wears off, only the ppl that seriously want to progress/ get experience will be queuing for it, and will be getting some serious exp.

1st queue is basically like the cross server raid finder they said they will be implementing, so hopefully that comes out soon.

[LeeraSorlan]

There is a problem with DF, especially with difficult Raid content. Lack of Accountability.

i think instant DF is a great idea, despite the actual chances of even clearing with a fully random group, it DOES allow one the chance to at least practice and get familiar with the vibe of the fight, regardless of wipes or clearing

and that may in turn get more people into raiding, or at least trying, because they can just say "hey i wanna go test this fight out real fast in DF" instead of making a PF (some people dont like making them) or having to wait for a learning party, or if you come back to the game in such a point where if there even ARE learning parties they ar eusually last phase ones.

[LDR]

and thus you've hit the nail on the head, at least in terms of what i personally have issues with in regards to raiding
Schedules
8 people

Neither of these are a viability for me or my friends, nor have been for some time. and there isnt 8 of us consistently playing, and we have hard time working with randoms due to how we work as a unit.

our server is small, and NA; we are all EU (we've been on here since ARR launch so hence why not an EU server) so our times dont match up with others on the server. plus we have friends and dont want to leave + loose everything we have, so its just us.
and at best, we can get a group of 6 together reliably
realistically its 4.

so we only have half the required numbers, our times dont sync with outside people, and we generally cant commit daily practise etc [jobs, schools etc]

so a true "Mid-teir" style raid [imo of mid-teir] would be amazing. 4, maybe up to 6 people, difficulty similar to the first savage turn at most, maybe a tad more who knows.

i can dream

[Klamor]

> Quoted just for reference <

I feel ya on basically all of that.

I've played several MMOs in the last 10 years, and raided endgame pretty regularly in all of them. With that said, I think some of the issue I'm having with finding groups for raiding here in FFXIV is a mix of what you said, and a few other things. First, I'm getting old. I work and have a family. I mention this, because I think a lot of the players of FFXIV have grown up with the series or were already partially grown when they started playing FFI back in the day. Compared to the players I was around in World of Warcraft, Aion, RIFT, and Rising Force, I think the players in FFXIV are generally older. By about 10 years on average, I would guess. Whereas in WoW and RIFT I would be consistently surrounded by players ranging from 15-25, here i'm surrounded by players aged 25-50. That's a larger gap, and along with that, higher responsibilities. More responsibilities outside the game tend to diminish the amount of time a person is able to spend inside the game. That means each hour a person plays is precious. They have daily quests to complete, relics to work on, tomestones to cap. Everything takes longer in this game as well. Daily quests in WoW would take 10 minutes tops in some cases, and that was all of the dailies (Sunwell Isle). Here, because you have to run long distances for most of them, or wait an hour for a FATE, even the easy stuff just takes so much time.

I know I'm a special case on this point, though. I'm in Hawaii. It's almost impossible to find a group that doesn't start raiding before I even get off work on a normal day. Part of what drove me away from trying to raid in 3.X was the time zone difference mixed with not being able to join a group as my main job, Paladin. Lots of people would love to have a BRD/MCH, or AST/SCH, but I didn't spend my Lore on those jobs. I didn't gear those up, and it would takes months to gear them up to what my PLD is. It's not their fault; it's nobody's fault.

I pretty much stick around now just because this is what I've been doing (also from 1.0, and ARR Beta, as PLD) for a few years now, and there's really nothing that catches my eye on the market today. I want this game to thrive. I'll just leave it at that for now.

[LineageRazor]

i think instant DF is a great idea, despite the actual chances of even clearing with a fully random group, it DOES allow one the chance to at least practice and get familiar with the vibe of the fight, regardless of wipes or clearing

The problem I see here is that most raid-level content is split into multiple phases - EVERY phase of which require near picture-perfect choreography from every member present in order to pass. These phases are generally quite different from one another. This means that Duty Finder might be a fine way to get good practice on the first phase, but that's pretty much it. Each time you enter duty finder, you'll be saddled with at least one or two newbies who will prevent you from proceeding on to the later phases.

As a member of a six-man static, even Party Finder isn't much help in this regard. Nine times out of ten, one or both of the pick-up players overestimate their ability, and we find ourselves rehashing the same old early-phase stuff that we have ingrained in our very bones. On the occasion when we DO get competent pick-ups, half the time WE are the ones holding a pick-up member back. We're still learning this stuff ourselves, after all, and they were expecting later progression than we were ready to offer. Such players generally jump ship pretty quickly, once more killing our ability to progress.

It's all very frustrating, I agree, but I really don't think that there's an answer as easy as "add it to Duty Finder".

Honestly, I think that the best way to "fix" raiding would be to provide some method for practicing the phase of your choice, rather than starting from the beginning every single time. Only provide rewards for a complete run, but allow a group to start at any point in the fight while practicing, maybe?