Issue With End Game Raiding

[Warlyx]

The significant difference is that FFXI endgame wasn't really 18-man boss fights. You could take up to 18 people, but you could easily beat almost everything with significantly fewer people.

Imagine Savage fights being tuned exactly as they are now, but being able to take anywhere between 8 and 20 people, and that's what FFXI endgame was like.

18 or more because i remember ppl leaving the alliance and others joining , or not even joining at all (some healers )

[Warlyx]

The significant difference is that FFXI endgame wasn't really 18-man boss fights. You could take up to 18 people, but you could easily beat almost everything with significantly fewer people.

Imagine Savage fights being tuned exactly as they are now, but being able to take anywhere between 8 and 20 people, and that's what FFXI endgame was like.

18 or more because i remember ppl leaving the alliance and others joining , or not even joining at all (some healers )

[silentwindfr]

people don't stop to complain about get a group of 8 every week and you want to add a content for 18+ person, i dunno it feel kinda.... well you see.

[silentwindfr]

i will not say that the raiding community is dead, but let's say it's not as big as before... and will not go better i guess.

the reason vary:
- new player have a hard time to join a static, a lot of static are quite elitist (not all ^^)
- player have a life and will have trouble to schedule content like this.
- some player will simply not find it fun to repeat over and over and over content for do bunny jumping
- the lack of replayability of the content, loot =/= replayability ^^

and i'm sure other people can give more and more reason of why this situation is like this.

[Warlyx]

and i'm sure other people can give more and more reason of why this situation is like this.

- its a Gil Sink , waste gil on food and potions , isnt cheap at all ....if u craft , waste time on gathering and crafting (1 potion at time of course!) thats time u cant "enjoy" FFXIV

- half the time u are raiding is waiting on Cds....food last 30 min , but u only use 15 of those so frustrating!

- the content is fun when learning after that is boring , and u have to repeat phase 1 to practice phase 2....and repeat p1 & p2 to wipe on P3 in 10s....

- ppl already know that 240 gear will rain in a few months ....so if u arent a "raider" that like the content ....why bother?

[Yukiko]

To be honest: I did do team rope jumping in my childhood.
Still, i havnt done it each day because its not an action you have fun repeating over and over again...
Our games varied and thats what i think is missing the most in current endgame.

Lets say you aim for Savage Gear, there is no way to get them other than doing savage!
Thats not how i remember we played games in my childhood (i dont mean computer games)
Even if future content will vary, i fear gating them behind walls or lockouts or weekly drops will negate the positive effect.

[Bobkitty]

I just wish it has better accessibility, cause right now:

1) Running Savage with a PUG is typically not a good experience unless you are learning
2) A static requires every member to agree on a set time/day and most people in this world have things going on in their lives or don't want to take a hobby this seriously. This can be an issue since you need eight people for this, and they also have to be good at what they do.
3) If you have a player who has cleared for the week, it would affect the number of chests upon clearing. Making it hard to get assistance from friends who are in other statics.
4) People who are unfortunate enough to have started on smaller servers will have a harder time with the first three points I made due to the number of players they have at endgame who are capable/interested/not in a static already, therefore resulting in world transfers which ultimately hinders the growth of their original world's raid community, reinforcing this point altogether.

I don't believe that putting them on DF is the solution, it'll be just like my first point, with less accountability.

[silentwindfr]

...I don't believe that putting them on DF is the solution, it'll be just like my first point, with less accountability.

i think like you, put it in the DF is barely a band aid at this point.
the whole trouble is most people don't really want to spend this much time to die and retry, it work in a game like dark soul, but seriously i still remember razorgore that did take a few month for my raid to pass... believe me it was not fun and it was only frustration...

the trouble is yoshida and it team are too much focus on the past and refuse to see that. like some people still think that raid at 24+ will make the game better, as a former raid leader i know perfectly than more people involved more a joke the content become. mostly because it's impossible to create a content that will recquire very high coordination and execution for this much person. we had a saying in my raid on wow vanilla, for a raid at 40 you must at least count 6 people that will do shit. because you can't monitor everyone action and some will not stay focus.

yes a big group create difficulty, but is more a difficulty in the management of the group more than the raid. do it's true difficulty? i'm not that sure, i don't say that the savage is easy and such, more than the difficulty come from the fact that they tailored it for an almost perfect execution of a pattern more than test the skill of the player or the group by itself.

it was said before, right now is more 8 people dancing solo, right to the other member of the group. little to no real teamwork. since most of the fight are choregraphy that need to be executed more than reaction, adapation or improvisation.

sadly, they want to create a very high level content, and they scared to create a content that will force the group to improvise, adapt and react to what come, random in a fight is always welcome, it make them more replayable. (and i don't say full random). what make people less interested is too that part... the fact that when you did beat the boss and get the choregraphy it will be a boring fight where you repeat this choregraphy.

personally i have raid enough in the past, i don't feel the need to repeat this sort of model over and over and over. yeah new mechanic will appear, but in all honesty, do it feel really rewarding? like said by warlyx, most of the stuff will get trivialized later. and i doubt that loot is a reward enough... my favorite raid is zul gurub (vanilla) where you was the one deciding how the raid will go. you can do the priest in the order you want or even try to kill hakkar without kill all the priest... we are too much guided, too much into choregraphy for be really interesting...

soo far, for me the raid of FF14 is like a rail shooter. (i think the same of the dungeon) i was not loving totorak in the V1, but i admit the idea behind the dungeon was really interesting, badly implemented, but interesting.

we need more random, more different encounter that are not always leading to a rail shooter mechanic. we need to become explorer... they need to add a part of rogue like content, with randomized encounter to some point. where people need to react to the enemy and the skill they will use. here instead to learn the boss, we learn a dance, and i feel it need to be learning the boss and the skill he can use.

more reaction, adaption and improvisation is needed.

[Nominous]

Sadly, an extra difficulty level wouldn't do much to satiate the community. A lot of people pine for it, but let's really think about that.

Savage needs to maintain the highest item level rewards, and not by a small margin. People (other than the most elite) won't be interested in it otherwise, as we've seen with Savage Second Coil. That leads to most of the raid-inclined community feeling like they have to do it. We already see this now, as a good portion of the community still attempts Savage, despite their actual interests or alignments (casual/mid/hardcore).

Problem 2? Dead content. It's a fine line, balancing this content. Middle difficulty is more or less what Extreme Primals are. It takes time to actually learn the encounter, but it's cleared within the first couple of days, and almost certainly the first week or two, by most of the community. Normal mode might as well be dead on arrival at that point, since people could just get better gear at the Extreme level, which is the most efficient gearing route. Let's not forget that crafted gear would undoubtedly be better than normal (it already is). At that point, you're effectively back to two difficulty levels, with dead content to boot.

It's really a difficult system to try and remedy, and while I do think a 4-6 person party sounds like a better fix than other things, I somehow don't imagine they'd nail that. With their logic, I can already hear them saying, "We'd have to make mechanics more punishing for individual players, since the party size is smaller."

[silentwindfr]

snips

the loot is not the carrot enough, like said tons of people don't have the means nor want to invest themself into this, then use this for pull more people into it will not work. even if the difference was bigger people will not do it because they don't want!

the trouble is not continue to use a model that is broken... so far people do normal raid why? because it's accessible, anyone with a bit of pratice can do it... but that not different than a brutal mode of a trial, if you take out the reward no one will do it. and nothing will change.

the trouble is to focus on a pyramid model, here we have the raid that are at the top, nothing at the same level. and below you have different level of content that will deliver less good experience and reward. because that a fact, raid soo far don't offer a very rewarding experience, choreagraphy that must be executed perfectly is nice and all but let's face it, when you did learn how to do it, where is the fun? it become a boring experience.

i don't say to take out the raid, i say to have another content at the same level for another type of player. it will not make the raid irrevelant and if people need the carrot for feel the point to do it... it means the raid is failling to appeal to the player. raider when i was raiding was doing it for the thrill more than the loot. the loot was a means to beat the raid and a way to show you have done it, not the purpose to do it.