Issue With End Game Raiding

[Alahra]

Following adjustments to AS6, Midas overall doesn't largely feel notably more difficult than the three Coils of Bahamut were in ARR. It's about where they wanted it—in between Second Coil and Final Coil in difficulty. All in all, that's a pretty good sweet spot.

Regarding recruitment, though, the game's still feeling the aftermath of the damage done by Gordias, and it's going to take time for each server to build up a sizable raiding community again. From what I can tell on my server, there are a ton of statics looking for BRD/MCH, and that bottleneck is probably really giving the scene here trouble. Even tanks seem to be more common than BRD/MCH these days, and I'm sure healers are more prolific than that.

I definitely think it's worth trying to form your own group if you're having trouble slipping into one, though. I know it can suck to backpedal a bit, but it might be worth it in the long term, especially if you can form a group with folks who you're already familiar with.

[RiceisNice]

Story mode works for what it is so dont even think about trying to make it 'harder'. If you can't put in the effort for savage then you just dont raid. Simple. As I said in the bit you quoted this isn't WoW.

Again, that's the problem. There is no other raid content that isn't savage difficulty (which wasn't the case for coil days). What story mode is doing right now is an entirely different purpose of what coil (or even EX trials) accomplished, and the introduction of story mode and savage mode is missing that purpose (and EX trials are far/few inbetween).

There are groups (and I personally know a few at least on my realm) that have started and cleared during FCoB days, most of them before echo. They wanted to get their group together ahead of time and break into raiding so they're familiar with each other going into 3.0's raiding content. You can't honestly say that normal/story mode is tuned as a static content, so the next one up is savage mode. Did raiding in FFXIV suddenly become something that isn't for them over the course of an expansion, and was it even a good choice at that considering what Gordias had accomplished with the raiding community/population.

[Reinha]

Again, that's the problem. There is no other raid content that isn't savage difficulty (which wasn't the case for coil days). What story mode is doing right now is an entirely different purpose of what coil (or even EX trials) accomplished, and the introduction of story mode and savage mode is missing that purpose (and EX trials are far/few inbetween).

There are groups (and I personally know a few at least on my realm) that have started and cleared during FCoB days, most of them before echo. They wanted to get their group together ahead of time and break into raiding so they're familiar with each other going into 3.0's raiding content. You can't honestly say that normal/story mode is tuned as a static content, so the next one up is savage mode. Did raiding in FFXIV suddenly something that isn't for them over the course of an expansion, and was it even a good choice at that considering what Gordias had accomplished with the raiding community/population.

Well "savage" would have to be either Coil difficulty or the current savage difficulty. There is no way the devs are going to put resources into making 3 difficulties of the same raid or get rid of one of the most popular PvE modes in the game (normal Alex). Coil may be considered a nice in-between difficulty for statics, but the truth is it wasn't that popular back in the day. Only about 10% of players cleared it in JP realms and a disappointing 0.1%-4.8% cleared in NA/EU realms. Normal mode, or easy mode as some like to call it, is here to stay because people actually play it. And going by the responses to AS6 nerfs I don't think raiders would be too happy to have all of savage mode lowered to Coil standards.

[RiceisNice]

...but the truth is it wasn't that popular back in the day. Only about 10% of players cleared it in JP realms and a disappointing 0.1%-4.8% cleared in NA/EU realms. Normal mode, or easy mode as some like to call it, is here to stay because people actually play it. And going by the responses to AS6 nerfs I don't think raiders would be too happy to have all of savage mode lowered to Coil standards.

The numbers you linked date back way before any nerfs have been done. Even then, players doing the content isn't a good metric on whether or not it's a good design (FATEs and diadem when i210 was the cap being an example of this). When you tune it to something like Normal/story mode, that's just as about as meaningful as sayng "This % of players completed the MSQ"

And in regards to your bolded post, the players haven't responded very well either to the design of difficulty in gordias (whether it was too difficult or too steep of a slope one way or another), I'd think it's a bigger concern if the raiding population has dwindled to the point that some servers are lacking a player pool for raiding to begin with. Going by responses, it's been a mixed reaction which is the case for almost any change. However, it is too soon to call out on any consequences to the player population as a result of it (and if it's even worth the risk at this point after goridas)

[vedobsu]

I will give you a very simple answer on how to fix raiding for majority of ppls enjoyment..
Make it easier, the reason why Final Coil was the best was because of the story, encounters, and the difficulty. Ask yourself one thing, is it really worth all the stress to raid content for 2-3 months and when you finally clear you get to do it all over again 3-4 months later. Make it easier so ppl can clear in about 1 month and actually can afford to get loot for alts while the gear is still relevant and not just for glamour. Don't bother telling me to find very talented ppl, its about playing the game stress free and for fun tbh. If you want to cater to the hardcore ppl make something similar to savage second coil where you give them a goblin mount if they clear it or w/e. Point is make it easier so more ppl can enjoy it. Attack my opinion however you want, I believe in what I said and I think it is a solution to current raiding issues in the game.

[Alexftw]

I've only cleared A5S and I can empathize I used to be a hardcore raider in 2.0 and now I can barely get anyone from my static consistently on. It really sucks and I'm in the same boat do I keep playing or just quit? It's honestly just a headache to get everyone on and when they do its 1 cycle and we're done till before reset. The raiding needs to change that's for sure but there's not many ideas left that hasn't already been said.

Then replace the people who never come. Honestly I was on same situation on 3.0-3.1 patch. Instead of quitting I kept looking for people who actually commit until I found a decent group.

And its just like you said. If it's easy people will have the 4 bosses on farm on first week and then its login, clear in 1-2hours and logout for the rest of week. The actual fun about savage is the learning process and actually managing to clear it eventually.

Tbh only way I'd want savage to be primal ex dificulty is if they released new raid every 2 months to compensate for the factor of being easy.

But yeah I do agree that there could be a dificulty between savage and normal mode for the average people who don't have time yet want to raid. While its not the perfect solution, it would at least give them something to do.
Or maybe get square to break away from weekly reward system so that people can actually do savage on party finder when they're free. At the moment this system prevents people from raiding outside of their premade schedules. A5S is same dificulty as sepiroth for instance. Yet people do sepiroth on pf all the time.

[silentwindfr]

i think the core of the trouble is not about the difficulty, but the lack of choice in terms of content.
i don't feel make a 4 man version of the current raid is an answer too... but really a new form of endgame tailored for a team of 4 player that will recquire gears, skill and teamplay for complete it. it will have 2 advantage:

- first allows the people that don't have a static to create smaller groups (4 person is easier to gather) for enjoy challenging AND rewarding content. (pharos sirus vanilla wasn't hard, simply too much tuned for an ilevel people had not anymore 55-60 when most people was 80+).
- Second and that the most important, allows a smoother progression from a form at 4 player to 8 player, since 2 group of 4 can create easily a static.

but and i'm serious there, it must'nt reward less than raid, if the challenge is on par with the raid, it need to give the same reward. gather 4 or 8 person must'nt be counted into the difficulty of a raid, why? because people have life outside the game and can't always have the time or the connection for do raid at 8 or more. the trouble with FF14 endgame is the lack of choice... we can't customize our character and the item we have acces per tier are always same... without the mirage system we will all look the same. and i feel the game need to gain some choice in terms of what item we can earn.

give an alternative to the raid is not meaning to kill the raid. understand me, people that haven't any static will have a content tailored for them, but that don't means that static can't do this content too. the dev need to stop to try to force us to play only one jobs (two at best). ask us to count 11 week for equip a whole jobs is an error that need to be adressed. especially with the futur expansion (4.x that will probably announced at the fanfest later this years.) that will add more jobs to play. they need to move away from wow schema and create them own model.

they still need to deliver raid at 8, it's a given, but i feel they need to deliver a 4 man challenging content on par with the savage, for allows smaller group to not feel left out. and maybe allows people with wierd schedule to enjoy the game they love.

how do it? i have said it countless time... procedural generation, a la rogue like... the challenge will be into the adaptibility of the group. it can take the form of a sort of horde mode... or better randomized dungeon.
the best with this sort of content, it's the replayability. what lack the endgame of ff14, the loot is not replayability.

this sort of content can bring what ff14 lack and more important need the most. do it must be bring for the 3.X? no it's impossible this sort of content need a lot of time and work for be made, but i feel it need to come with the 4.X and must be one of the priority actually.

because what FF14 lack is choice into the endgame. we did tell you with the release of the 3.x content so far that we don't want a same model than the V2...you need to take risk and work on true new type of content for everyone, not only a small part of the community.

ps: and i hope someone will pass this message to Yoshi-P: tell the high up to give you more people for work on FF14... it's nice to invest soo much in FF15... but soo far you have more of 4Millions people already paying for a service that need more hand for it.

[Yhisa]

Iv been playing since early access.... Raided coil.... And did sephirot got my wep and never raided again

Before i use to be a hardcore raider in wow, but in ffxiv i dont even attempt to raid due to how the system works and this what happens

U will raid until ur blue in the face, after a month or 2 or 3 that effort shatters as same ilvl gear is being offered via tomestones then u be raiding for optimal stats or a +5 ilvl weapon

There is no reason to raid at all due to how often gear is passed down to please the playerbase that dont even step foot into raids

Me personally i would just remove 8man raids and make content for savage mode 4man which u have shorter time to complete and u get unique armor and weapons etc even minion/mounts for completing it also special items for glamours/mounts

These modes will have no story and be for players that want a challenge and play with friends etc but they are hard and challenging

[Alexftw]

Tbh if 4 man raid exists, mechanisms will have to be more complex due to half chance failing as less people = less chance single mistake. And rewards would need to be half of normal raid (as 4 ppl rolling instead of 8).

With these two factors I agree.

Having two raids would be interesting. (4man and 8man) and at same time would make a lot people at least be able to do one of them. (Since it's a lot easier to find 4 people).


A small suggestion would be: keep raid gear from 8man savage, make more lore upgrades drop from 4man. This would make upgrading hard but easier than 8man savage(I refuse to belive a 4 man raid can be as complex as 8man), but if you wanted bis youd have to do 8man savage aswell. Solves problem.

[Yhisa]

- tomestone
This is a serious old fashion way to get gear which is very boring to do especially running expert back to back for a 450 cap each week, no one likes this system and at less half of the playerbase just give up on the long grind once capped they logout and come back the following week

- gear choice
This is a serious problem at the max ilvl u have 2 gear choices only for each slot which only secondary stats is effective here, so gear customisation is none existant

- playerbase
As people have said FFXIV have mostly mature player base so its hard to get a static together to do raiding content and as a mature player we tend to look for the quickest way to get things done as IRL schedules effects our game iv been through a lot of statics in coil and 70% of the problems was due to players and there out of game lives