Issue With End Game Raiding

[LeeraSorlan]

maybe?

i can definantly agree with your points, however the DF idea was by no means a way to "fix" raiding, i just feel like it would help, however minimal and it wouldnt have too many drawbacks aside from the raging, which is present in just about everything duty related anywayand there is always the chance of just simply getting lucky (tho rarely). for example, i used to queue in for final coil all the time despite having already cleared it multiple times before it was in duty finder simply to pass the time, in that experience i was able to help many people even tho we wiped mostly before the adds ever even came out, however those people got decent first phase experience and might go on to better themselves in the party finders, for example.
again, this isnt me trying to find a fix to raiding, just more like an alternative option to at least try the fights

[HylianBebop]

I think raids needs to be put into DF at the start. This will allow more people to access it.

Heres an idea that could work. Obviously theres flaws etc that people can point out if they want to.

Queue 1:
Only people that have not cleared for the week may join. Need to have cleared before if solo queue. No need to have cleared in a full premade group. Therefore, upon clearing there will always be 2 chests and each person gets a page and you clear that turn for the week. No ilvl requirement

Queue 2:
Anyone can join this queue. No loot. Clearing doesn't change your 'cleared for the week' status if you haven't cleared. Insert some high ilvl requirement.

I think the issue here would be not running with the same people (or mostly the same people) every time you queue up for this. Also the lack of communication other than in-game chat. I think most raid groups use voice chat to some extent, so unless SE included a voice chat option in-game, I don't know if this would work. Also they would probably need to increase the time limit of the instance to account for discussion/strategy.

IMO, the reason why it is sometimes possible to learn/clear EX Primal content strictly through DF is because after roughly a few weeks to maybe a month, a "most common" or "popular" strategy emerges. Like on Sephiroth EX, the general strat is DPS left, healers/ot right, purple goes right (or back), 6/1/61 for add kill order, tanks have an assigned tower side, and finally green/tethers go up front and to the right or left, allowing melee with orange debuff to get up close on the other side for max dps. It's not very complicated and you can even macro most of it into a mini-guide up front (a player on Ultros does this for pug groups to help them out - develops macro-friendly guides to make pugging easier).

However, I think the complexity of some of the raids would be too high a barrier to overcome via DF, at least I would think it wouldn't be viable for some time after more universal strats are adopted from the existing pool of guides/videos.

i think instant DF is a great idea, despite the actual chances of even clearing with a fully random group, it DOES allow one the chance to at least practice and get familiar with the vibe of the fight, regardless of wipes or clearing

and that may in turn get more people into raiding, or at least trying, because they can just say "hey i wanna go test this fight out real fast in DF" instead of making a PF (some people dont like making them) or having to wait for a learning party, or if you come back to the game in such a point where if there even ARE learning parties they ar eusually last phase ones.

I agree that all content should be available via DF regardless of the chances of actually clearing it. So like say you get 4-5 people who want to do A5S or A6S right now in a pre-made, you can queue up and try to get the remaining people via a DF. Way more encouraging than sitting around waiting on your PF to probably never fill.

Honestly, I think that the best way to "fix" raiding would be to provide some method for practicing the phase of your choice, rather than starting from the beginning every single time. Only provide rewards for a complete run, but allow a group to start at any point in the fight while practicing, maybe?

I've brought that up quite a bit in discussions in our FC, saying they really need to just let people skip to either %HP phase changes of the fight or Time based phase changes for practice purposes. So like in the case of A6S, you could skip to the robot you've been reaching but haven't been clearing yet. Requisite would be that you had to have seen or reached that spot in the fight under normal conditions first, so you can't just skip ahead to parts you've never seen. Would be based on everyone in your party. Up for debate whether this "lock" is determined by the player with the least experience (ie you haven't seen this far, nobody in this part can skip past it), or vice versa (somebody has seen to this part, we can all skip to it to try it).

The only downside I can see to this is on SE's end. People would learn the fight faster theoretically, and thus probably clear content faster. Clear the content faster, they have nothing to do, they complain and possibly unsub. Which I find completely unfounded -- the only times this ever happened were Dead Game Time (post 2.55 wait for HW launch) and the longer-than-normal Gordias raid cycle. Both are addressable issues, too. So I don't buy the "people will quit" if they clear stuff too quickly and have nothing to do.

With the weekly lockout, you have to farm for your gear, which takes many weeks. And by the time most people would clear the last turn...they still need to farm it for their weapon! That could take up to 2 months. Otherwise, why even bother with the token system? People need time to get their weapons while it's relevant! So yea, people would stick around.

@OP, I think you should actively recruit like minded players who are interested in raiding at the same time as you are available. Sometimes, rather than seeking a group of people to run content with, it's better to make your own group to run the content you're interested in running. I think that with enough patience and effort you could form your own static of players you recruited on your own and your experience with the game will be much more positive.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that you are able to either find a group to join, or that you're able to find 7 other people and create your own, successful, static!

I put in my work to learn a raid (research vids, any guides out there) and provide feedback when raiding, but I don't have the time/will power to get 7 other people together and be a a leader. Just trying to search for a group for 1 open spot is enough for me. Basically, I'm not really a leader when it comes to raid stuff.

While this is a good idea in principle, it is fraught with difficulty in practice. In a lot of fights in the game, the early phases influence how the later phases play out. Consider starting T12 at phase 3 - how many Bennus are there and where are they positioned? AS2 any phase - how many gobwalkers do you have left and how much EP remaining? Even a question as simple as "how much is the LB gauge charged?" is influenced by the early phases and can be crucial to the strategy for the later ones.

This is a good idea, but I can't see how it could be done.

It just always defaults to the more difficult option. So in the T12 example, it always defaults to 5 Bennu. If you happen to get 4 in real time, it means things will go much better for you. For the A2S, you could maybe have it set to an average based on existing clears or groups at that point as an option. You could also set the levels maybe (full, halve, 1/3, etc) to practice as you want. I would also say you could pick the option to have LB gauge at whatever level you want. Just know that if you're setting it to LB3 each phase, that's not going to happen. Maybe you use it to get past something to learn the turns mechanics/the dance, then as you optimize dps, you eventually take away that crutch. Eventually you would only rely on LB as it was intended, but until then, you're getting in practice and learning mechanics at least.

What you're experiencing isn't new or isolated to FFXIV. Is there something wrong with it? I don't believe so.

There are plenty of things to do in this game at your own pace, but the core of this game is an MMO. The foundation of a game like this, is your ability to become a team and work with others.

I'm like you. I love to raid. I've gone through 5 statics since Beta, and server transferred twice.

If you love to raid, then you're probably more about the accomplishment than the gear. So doing an easier 4 man Alex/Coil would be less rewarding.

So my advice is, you have to decide what you want. The system in place isn't flawed. If you want to raid and that's why you play, keep looking and server transfer if you have to. Statics are breaking up everyday, so an opening can become available any day. If you don't want to leave your FC and friends, create an alt to visit when not raiding.

That reward sometimes takes sacrifice.

I should add in more of my perspective then to give some insight into why I play. I didn't want to cram it all into the OP because then it would have been a novel.

My favorite content in the game are the EX Primals. However, they only come every patch, and they're only good for MAYBE a month from my perspective. Clear them within first few days-end of week, farm over next week, help other people get clears over next week or two. After that first month, I might occasionally pop into learning groups or FC help groups. I think generally they are the most well designed and fun battles in the game. I would trade away end game raiding each cycle for a new EX primal every month. Especially if they all drop mounts!

Then I like the raid content because it tests your skill more so than the primals. However, because it is even more team dependent (players have to be more on point, way more strategy involved, higher skill requirement), it's not always as easy to get into or even do when you want, which is my problem now. This is the lionshare of end game PVE content available right now, so if you can't get into this, you're left with a few other PVE options, which to me are way less appealing.

I have all my crafters/gatherers to 60, and am a CUL specialist (I have WVR/ALC specialist, but only my CUL is geared enough to make any recipe at the moment). So I enjoy trying to craft HQ stuff for people when possible, but it's not very often. I also got super tired of the script system, so after decking out my Miner and Culinarian, I stopped caring about capping that each week.

I do enjoy collecting mounts and to a lesser extent minions. I go super hard on the mounts. I have all the primal birds now. I have all the GC horses (yes, all of them) and the ADS mount. I'm only missing the 3000 comm Choco (700 comms away), the 200 WAR clears (30 away), the Feast mini-airship (180 wins away), and sadly the Legacy Chocobo which I can never have since I refused to sub to the terrible 1.x version of the game (quit 2 months into 1.0, but we don't need to beat a dead horse here). Putting a mount in A4S was a very strong reason for why after my OG static broke up during A3S I even considered raiding again. I wanted that mount and I didn't want to wait. No mount in Midas means a bit less motivation to get through it all, at least with any urgency. FYI, after my OG static broke up, I joined one of the few Ultros pug LS dedicated to helping people clear content. I got my A3S clear with them, and found a group through them for A4S and Midas (the one that broke up a month ago). However, I was giving serious consideration to changing my raiding schedule as a result of the burn out I felt from A3S. I was resigned to just playing the game casually in even numbered patches, and then try to jump into raiding on odd number patches when poverty gear was abundant and refined strategies were available, hopefully make the progression at that point much easier than it was at the start.

I've dabbled in the Gold Saucer stuff (Choco Racing, Cards, Verminion) to get some of those rewards, but not really into any of that.

I went hard on PVP during the Seize days in 3.0-3.1, getting 100 wins with each GC, and 200 with Maelstrom to get all the mounts. I played like 1200 matches and got almost all the achievements for Seize. However, I didn't like the stressful nature of Wolve's Den (Fold), so I barely played it. Feast 4v4 is more of the same, that eSports competitive mentality doesn't mesh well with me, makes me feel to anxious and not want to play. But I am playing 8v8 every now and then and I find it pretty enjoyable, but once I get the mount I probably will stop playing it.

But anyway, the reward for raiding was it was engrossing content that was challenging. I only cared about the gear for two reasons: making progression of new turns possible and clearing past ones easier, and glamour (the true end game). The sooner I could clear a raid, the sooner I could go back and assist other groups who were struggling because I was free of the chains of progression.

[LDR]

and thus you've hit the nail on the head, at least in terms of what i personally have issues with in regards to raiding
Schedules
8 people

Neither of these are a viability for me or my friends, nor have been for some time. and there isnt 8 of us consistently playing, and we have hard time working with randoms due to how we work as a unit.

our server is small, and NA; we are all EU (we've been on here since ARR launch so hence why not an EU server) so our times dont match up with others on the server. plus we have friends and dont want to leave + loose everything we have, so its just us.
and at best, we can get a group of 6 together reliably
realistically its 4.

so we only have half the required numbers, our times dont sync with outside people, and we generally cant commit daily practise etc [jobs, schools etc]

so a true "Mid-teir" style raid [imo of mid-teir] would be amazing. 4, maybe up to 6 people, difficulty similar to the first savage turn at most, maybe a tad more who knows.

i can dream

[Klamor]

> Quoted just for reference <

I feel ya on basically all of that.

I've played several MMOs in the last 10 years, and raided endgame pretty regularly in all of them. With that said, I think some of the issue I'm having with finding groups for raiding here in FFXIV is a mix of what you said, and a few other things. First, I'm getting old. I work and have a family. I mention this, because I think a lot of the players of FFXIV have grown up with the series or were already partially grown when they started playing FFI back in the day. Compared to the players I was around in World of Warcraft, Aion, RIFT, and Rising Force, I think the players in FFXIV are generally older. By about 10 years on average, I would guess. Whereas in WoW and RIFT I would be consistently surrounded by players ranging from 15-25, here i'm surrounded by players aged 25-50. That's a larger gap, and along with that, higher responsibilities. More responsibilities outside the game tend to diminish the amount of time a person is able to spend inside the game. That means each hour a person plays is precious. They have daily quests to complete, relics to work on, tomestones to cap. Everything takes longer in this game as well. Daily quests in WoW would take 10 minutes tops in some cases, and that was all of the dailies (Sunwell Isle). Here, because you have to run long distances for most of them, or wait an hour for a FATE, even the easy stuff just takes so much time.

I know I'm a special case on this point, though. I'm in Hawaii. It's almost impossible to find a group that doesn't start raiding before I even get off work on a normal day. Part of what drove me away from trying to raid in 3.X was the time zone difference mixed with not being able to join a group as my main job, Paladin. Lots of people would love to have a BRD/MCH, or AST/SCH, but I didn't spend my Lore on those jobs. I didn't gear those up, and it would takes months to gear them up to what my PLD is. It's not their fault; it's nobody's fault.

I pretty much stick around now just because this is what I've been doing (also from 1.0, and ARR Beta, as PLD) for a few years now, and there's really nothing that catches my eye on the market today. I want this game to thrive. I'll just leave it at that for now.

[raela]

The data center wide raid finder might help with some of those issues. I can't imagine them going with savage style 4 man content though, when the current system I think works for most (I quite enjoyed the story mode, since I never had a static for coil). Yes, organizing 8 people is a headache - but PF is still an option if you don't have a full group. Though, timezone..

I enjoy the idea of savage raiding, but my own RL situation makes for semi limited time, and the static I had was quite rocky and finally fell apart. I just enjoy what I can when I can, and hope to find a good group (starting with a new one this week). Best of luck to you!

[MugenMugetsu]

@OP, I think you should actively recruit like minded players who are interested in raiding at the same time as you are available. Sometimes, rather than seeking a group of people to run content with, it's better to make your own group to run the content you're interested in running. I think that with enough patience and effort you could form your own static of players you recruited on your own and your experience with the game will be much more positive.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that you are able to either find a group to join, or that you're able to find 7 other people and create your own, successful, static!

[Kaurie]

For me, the biggest fault with raiding right now is the way lockout works. If I clear with one team, I can't go with another as I'll prevent a chest from dropping.

I currently lead a static, and to be honest, we raid less than I'd like - but due to schedules we cannot add more days. I'd love to be a part of a second static (I have a bunch of FC mates looking for a Scholar even), but I can't due to this lockout. I am not only preventing myself from getting the experience and entertainment for several days a week (which I have now turned into nights where I play WoW instead), but in a way I am preventing that other static of 7 people from being able to play.

I get that I shouldn't be able to roll on items more than once, I'd be fine with once I clear with Team A then I am opted out of the chests of Team B, but I don't think the entire team should be punished.

[Whocareswhatmynameis]

I think they really need better incentives to step into the harder difficulties or no1 is going to want to do it, including me. I think an exclusive set of gear for raiding would be a start. Having the ex primals drop the same ilvl wpns as the current capped tomestones would be a start as well. It's so frustrating that A8 normal gives a better weapon than Sephirot Extreme...

Right now there is very little incentive to do anything harder than "expert" roullette and Alexander normal imo. But maybe I'm just a special snowflake, what do i know?!?!

[Zari]

. Having the ex primals drop the same ilvl wpns as the current capped tomestones would be a start as well. It's so frustrating that A8 normal gives a better weapon than Sephirot Extreme...

That is how it has worked so far it seems though.
Ravana was 10 ilvl under the 200 gear then Thordan came with 5 above that but still under gordias savage wep.

Chances are it will be the same here. Sephi is 220, base lore is 230, next ex primal (probably 3.3) will be 235, midas savage is 240-245

[Thayos]

The fact that endgame is built on having eight-person statics -- AND ONLY EIGHT PEOPLE, no more or less -- is really what's suffocating endgame.

The average gamer is 35 years old and has a slew of adult responsibilities that take priority over video games. Many of us were hardcore players back in XI, but we simply can't keep that up. I definitely spend enough time in the game each week to satisfy a static's hours, but what I don't have (and what others don't have) is the predictability in our schedules to block off two or three nights/week for a video game.

This game needs some kind of dynamis-like content that isn't dependent on having EXACTLY EIGHT PEOPLE or memorizing a complex script of insta-death jumprope mechanics. The Diadem was on the right track, but obviously it fell totally short.

These rigid "eight-man only" systems are also stunting the growth of FCs and the game's social vibe, but that's another convo.