Gigas and Sephirot - possible connection?

[Fenral]

Nitpick! It's Bozja.

I swore I fixed that typo before posting! XP

The flaw being magic/the ability to manipulate aether or is that just an unfortunate side effect? Maybe the aether ineptitude is a side effect of attempting to isolate oneself from the Lifestream to become effectively immortal!? I'm curious on what flaw you think they're trying to fix.

The "flaw" being human ambition. My headcanon for post-Calamity Allag is that they went the way of many a doomed precusor civilization and decided it was their duty to correct the inborn flaws of humanity to prevent another disaster. By, you know, tampering with the source code for the sake of genetically lobotomizing the species. As long as they don't do it for Evil™, it's fine right?

Except instead of learning humility and peaceful coexistence by being cut off from the works of their ancestors, this new race had perhaps the largest chip on its shoulder the world would ever see, and a whole lot to prove.

How is that? I always figured there were two invasions of Meracydia, and they both happened during Xande's reign. We know Allag tried to conquer Meracydia before his resurrection and failed, and then Amon revived him and they succeeded. Since we know Amon created Dalamud, and the Ascians told him how, it seems feasible that the great Pokemon Catching of Meracydian deiforms was neatly condensed in the second Allag-Meracydian war.

Rather, I'm confused as to how the card mucks up the timeline, I guess.

It means the Triad (specifically Sephirot) couldn't have been harnessed to augment Xande if they were captured after his resurrection. It may have been used for others later, but the Embiggening of Xande was an Amon original and took place before his Pokemon Journey.

[Rocl]

I swore I fixed that typo before posting! XP

I live for minor typos.

The "flaw" being human ambition. My headcanon for post-Calamity Allag is that they went the way of many a doomed precusor civilization and decided it was their duty to correct the inborn flaws of humanity to prevent another disaster. By, you know, tampering with the source code for the sake of genetically lobotomizing the species. As long as they don't do it for Evil™, it's fine right?

Except instead of learning humility and peaceful coexistence by being cut off from the works of their ancestors, this new race had perhaps the largest chip on its shoulder the world would ever see, and a whole lot to prove.

Can't say I subscribe to this, but there are no glaring errors I can think of. Just enough validity for headcanon. The idea that the Garleans are malformed or best-of-intentions-gone-awry chimeras would be a delicious irony though-- they spend so long venerating Allag only for them to be exactly the same as the beast tribes! (Well, Ixali for sure, others likely.) Deformed degenerate failures of science gone awry! Hah!

It means the Triad (specifically Sephirot) couldn't have been harnessed to augment Xande if they were captured after his resurrection. It may have been used for others later, but the Embiggening of Xande was an Amon original and took place before his Pokemon Journey.

Ah, see, this is why I asked for clarification. The thought didn't even cross my mind that they embiggened Xande with Sephirot juice, which they couldn't have had because Sephirot had to be captured post-Xande resurrection. (Sometimes I'm a little dumb) I also have to walk back "Amon created Dalamud" because while I personally believe it, I can't find any factual evidence to support it ingame... which is sort of necessary to make such a claim.

[Fenral]

Ah, see, this is why I asked for clarification. The thought didn't even cross my mind that they embiggened Xande with Sephirot juice, which they couldn't have had because Sephirot had to be captured post-Xande resurrection. (Sometimes I'm a little dumb) I also have to walk back "Amon created Dalamud" because while I personally believe it, I can't find any factual evidence to support it ingame... which is sort of necessary to make such a claim.

I tend to leave out the point-by-point reasoning on some of my wackier leaps of logic, so I probably didn't make it clear enough that I was actually responding to an earlier comment that Sephirot was used to turn Xande into a giant. Whoops. At any rate, he probably wasn't. The Gigas, on the other hand, we still don't have an answer for. The descendants of Augmented Onion Knights, perhaps?

Can't say I subscribe to this, but there are no glaring errors I can think of. Just enough validity for headcanon. The idea that the Garleans are malformed or best-of-intentions-gone-awry chimeras would be a delicious irony though-- they spend so long venerating Allag only for them to be exactly the same as the beast tribes! (Well, Ixali for sure, others likely.) Deformed degenerate failures of science gone awry! Hah!

It would be delightfully ironic, but also the sort of reveal that could inspire Empire-wide character development. I still want to think that whatever happens MSQ-wise once we reach Garlemald will also give us a "true ending" to the whole Allag mythos. Maybe we'll even find a way to end this with Varis still on the throne.

[PArcher]

It means the Triad (specifically Sephirot) couldn't have been harnessed to augment Xande if they were captured after his resurrection. It may have been used for others later, but the Embiggening of Xande was an Amon original and took place before his Pokemon Journey.

Well, just going with this, the Triad may have been the ones to originally stop the Allagans in this first invasion. Amon took a page from Sephirot, and mimiced his powers to reanimate Xande.

Just a thought, nothing more...

[Anonymoose]

f

We know for a fact the reason Allagans like Xande and Amon are so mahoosive is because of magical growth juice extracted from Sephirot.

The TT card for Xande confirms that his original body was exhumed and enlarged by Amon in his efforts to resurrect him, which kinda messes with the timetable if the Triad were supposedly captured during the invasion of Meracydia in Xande's second reign.

I'd like to try to clear this part up a bit.

Realizing that he needed more power to wage his war of conquest, Xande turned his sights towards a forbidden source: darkness. In order to learn how to harness this power, he converted the Crystal Tower into a restricted research facility. <...> Wielding the power of darkness requires prodigious amounts of energy─energy that not even the Crystal Tower could produce. In order to augment the shortfall, Dalamud was created and launched into the heavens. On high it hung, gathering the sun's energy and channeling it to the tower below.

Allag did study primals prior to Xande's resurrection, due to the mysterious EVENT REDACTED. They even set about planning Azys Lla (the basics of it, mind you) before Xande was resurrected. However, it was Azys Lla itself that developed the capability to capture primals in the first place, and that didn't bear fruit until after Xande invaded Meracydia.

I think that whatever made Phlegethon et al. so big could originally have been tested on the Gigants to make a slave species. The minotaurs and cyclopes, too; why not? But which were prior to Sephirot's capture and which were after I can't say just yet, as I haven't divided the generations of biotech properly (it's on the to-do list). Still, it seems impossible that Sephirot had anything to do with Xande's growth unless he was resurrected as a normal dude and augmented later. It actually looks like even Phlegethon's rebellion was prior to Sephirot's capture.

Here's the (confirmed canonical) order of events:

• [1] Under Emperor Xande, the Allagan Empire rises in Eorzea.

• [2] The Empire succeeds in unifying Eorzea. It then moves east, conquering the Northlands (Ilsabard) as well as the Far East (Othard). At this time, magic and science become a single field. After EVENT REDACTED, research into primals begins.

• [3] Towards the end of the Third Astral Era, the Crystal Tower is raised. The sun's energy leads to unprecedented prosperity - the culture becomes decadent, and progress stagnates.

• [4] Under the technologist Amon, the plan to resurrect Xande is initiated. Around the same time, the plan to build Azys Lla also comes into being.

• [5] Cloning technology radically advances, leading to Xande's resurrection. Under Xande's second reign, Meracydia is invaded.

• [6] Multiple races of Meracydia summon primals (warring gods). The Imperial Army struggles. On the home front, Xande faces rebellion due to his tyranny.

• [7] Technology from the Aetherochemical Research Facility creates new weaponry (including the Weapons) to defeat and capture the primals of the southern continent. The Imperial Army is victorious.

• [8] The largest primal, Bahamut, is restrained into an artificial satellite (now known as Dalamud) and launched into space. Utilizing Bahamut's "Megaflares", they send even more of the sun's power to the Crystal Tower in order to accommodate harnessing the powers of darkness.

• [9] (A group of brave warriors become beacons of hope and move against Allag. Xande attempts to throw open the voidgate too fast, too soon.) A massive discharge of energy from the crystal tower sets off a chain of earthquakes, resulting in the Fourth Umbral Calamity. Important facilities are destroyed, Allagan civilization collapses. Cut off from ground support, Azys Lla is abandoned.

From the Allagan Empire's rise to its fall spans roughly 1,000 years. However, the time span inclusive of [1] and [2] is much, much longer than [3] through [9]. Notice also that this doesn't preclude Amon having a hand in the design of pretty much anything, lol.

[Frederick22]

We also dont know who were the emperors between Xande's reings. Our only suspect is Scyllia, based that on the WoD one of her clones has the title of "Queen"

[Hinoto-no-Ryuji]

The "flaw" being human ambition. My headcanon for post-Calamity Allag is that they went the way of many a doomed precusor civilization and decided it was their duty to correct the inborn flaws of humanity to prevent another disaster. By, you know, tampering with the source code for the sake of genetically lobotomizing the species. As long as they don't do it for Evil™, it's fine right?

Except instead of learning humility and peaceful coexistence by being cut off from the works of their ancestors, this new race had perhaps the largest chip on its shoulder the world would ever see, and a whole lot to prove.

Personally, I really REALLY hope this doesn't end up being the case. I'd much rather the flaws of the Garlean empire be a human nature thing, rather than some genetic predisposition. It's unnecessary, for starters - nothing about Garlemald's ambitions are so unprecedented in history, both real and Hydaelynian, that they require some kind of supernatural (for lack of a better word) explanation. As such, a twist like that would detract from the story much more than it would contribute, not in the least by completely dehumanizing our conflict with them.

[Fenral]

I'd much rather the flaws of the Garlean empire be a human nature thing, rather than some genetic predisposition.

I think I miscommunicated my point. What I meant is that (hypothetically speaking) it's exactly a human nature thing: they were altered in a way that was supposed to make them less warlike, or at least unable to commit the magical atrocities of their forbears, but it didn't actually change anything aside from giving them a genetic disadvantage (inability to manipulate aether) that they would have to struggle extra to compensate for. Garleans are a race of Muggles in a world where everyone but them is born a wizard, almost like the world itself wants them to fail. Pretty much everything they do is to prove they can succeed in spite that major handicap. By trying to limit their creations' potential for violence, the Allagans (or whatever civilization) instead only proved that conflict and struggle and ambition are all parts of what it means to be human.

But it's a silly headcanon anyway, so nobody needs to take it seriously.

[Kotemon]

There's a Grand Company Leve "Who Writes history"

Notes: Gigas converge on the Crystal Tower, led by a firebrand calling himself Okeanos the Red. He incites the mob to take back Silvertear Falls, and reconsecrate the ruins of the Allagan Empire, from which he claims descent. Reunite Okeanos with his ancestors, and let any who stand in the way anoint the ground with hot fear and cold blood.

Remember there's another Fate or Guild Heist that describes the three giant factions as being part of some kind of social hierarchy that don't get along well with each other. Giant, Gigas, & Hecatoncheir (why is the spelling E>I instead of I>E?)

[CyrusArjuna]

(why is the spelling E>I instead of I>E?)

Don't you remember the old saying: I before E except after C? Or maybe because it's a Greek word? I dunno.

But more seriously, it'd be kinda cool if all Calamities were so catastrophic that they included genetic abnormalities. Miqo'te males being less common? Result of a Calamity. Garleans and Gigas (assuming they're both descended from Allagans) being unable to manipulate aether/their size and lowered intelligence? Result of a Calamity. Not sure what the other Calamities might have introduced though...