Super-mega-grind

[Fieros]

i agree 40-50 with craft leves is prety easy just need a heap load of anima... or waste time chocoboing to and from each camp... thats the only down side to the system, would be even nicer if they made it possible to horde leves for set camp so you can hand in 5 or so at bald knoll rather than 1 here 1 there per set of 4 or so leves it wastes about 10 anima... and about half a hour to 1 hour depending on how fast you pump it out for 20k+ its not to bad.

The hoarding system is great in that it allows you to plow through tons of leves at once basically turning them into repeatable quests from other MMORPGs. The thing about repeatable quests that it lacks is the convienience of the quest NPC being on location.

Instead of accepting what amounts to delivery quests from Ul'dah to turn a pile of materials into something Camp Horizon needs, the pile of junk should be at the camp already. Interacting with the crystal or NPC at Camp Horizon would then allow you to repeat the leve indefinately saving the step of traveling back and forth to Ul'dah every time. The same can be done with battlecraft and fieldcraft leves.

If I want to spend my 50 leve quests grinding pugilist in Nawana Mines I should be able to do so without the time-consuming step of travelling back and forth every 3 quests.

With the new system allowing focused leve-usage and becoming what amounts to the equivilant of repeatable quests in every other MMORPG the next step remains to add the convienience of this repeatable mechanic by removing travel and allowing on-location acceptance of leves.

[Rinsui]

Naturally, the majority of people playing an MMO find it enjoyable and fun. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Hmm. I doubt the veracity of that statement in FFXIV. Crafting, for one thing, is not considered fun by anyo... well, there's always a few who like smelling dung, but I think it's save to say that there are *remarkably few* players who like the crafting mini-game in itself. But the prospect of pulling in millions upon millions as a high level crafter is enough of a pull for many to "endure" the grind. until they snap and realize they just wasted 100 hours on pressing the same button. While watching the same episode of Southpark for the 13th time. And gaining considerable weight on the way.

[Betelgeuzah]

But the prospect of pulling in millions upon millions as a high level crafter is enough of a pull for many to "endure" the grind.

Well, that won't be the case for too long, so those people no longer have to "endure" something they don't even enjoy. The problem fixes itself, and only people who enjoy the thought of playing with the economy can do it. The economy will stabilize, incentive to craft will become weaker, and people can do what they enjoy.

Then, suddenly, "feeling like a grind" becomes a buzzword at best. Those who end up crafting don't feel it as a grind, because they do it because they want to craft, not because they want to make crazy profitz instantly. Those who end up fighting don't feel it as a grind, again, for the same reason. And those who think both activities feel like a grind, well, they won't play this game.

I think it's save to say that there are *remarkably few* players who like the crafting mini-game in itself.

Not surprising, considering crafting is never about the actual game mechanics in any game.

[Robert_De_Niro]

The hoarding system is great in that it allows you to plow through tons of leves at once basically turning them into repeatable quests from other MMORPGs. The thing about repeatable quests that it lacks is the convienience of the quest NPC being on location.

Instead of accepting what amounts to delivery quests from Ul'dah to turn a pile of materials into something Camp Horizon needs, the pile of junk should be at the camp already. Interacting with the crystal or NPC at Camp Horizon would then allow you to repeat the leve indefinately saving the step of traveling back and forth to Ul'dah every time. The same can be done with battlecraft and fieldcraft leves.

If I want to spend my 50 leve quests grinding pugilist in Nawana Mines I should be able to do so without the time-consuming step of travelling back and forth every 3 quests.

With the new system allowing focused leve-usage and becoming what amounts to the equivilant of repeatable quests in every other MMORPG the next step remains to add the convienience of this repeatable mechanic by removing travel and allowing on-location acceptance of leves.

this would be totally awsome.... yet also very lazy in another way and SE do like to add time sinks the current system is totally a time sink .... i do how ever like how you worded it its what i was thinking kinda but lacked the words ;p

[Preypacer]

Is it just me, or is crafting in FFXIV the
grindiest of all grinds ever invented in a MMO?

Is there a single game in human history where
crafting was grindier, or does FFXIV hold the
ultimate record?

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

And if you happened to fail the craft, you could lose potentially weeks worth of material gathering, component crafting, etc.

Oh, and unless you found a Dwarf (the only race who could really craft anything beyond basic items) with your recipe set up to craft in its shop (Dwarf players could set up their characters as crafting shops), you had to level a Dwarf yourself, get him to the level where he could learn to craft the item(s) you wanted, and then do it. The upside to that, though, is that crafters could make a lot of money in that game by just parking their character in the right spot, and letting people to come to them to craft stuff while they were afk, etc.

XIV's is a walk in the park by comparison.

Personally, I don't even think XIV's is that bad.. boring and could use a bit more variety in the situations you have to respond to and how you have to respond... but not horrible. I personally enjoy actually being involved in the process moreso than clicking one button and poof... you have your items.

[Rinsui]

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

Hmm. Last time I played Lineage II (sometime in 2004?) each step didn't take more than a few seconds (incidentially I was a dwarf artisan). Then again, that was during open beta. ^^ I just remember that raw materials were waaay more expensive than finished items back then...

Also, as far as I remember there was no separate leveling of crafting skills per se; you got the respective skills automatically as you leveled up your character. So there was no real "crafting grind".

[Tiraelina]

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

And if you happened to fail the craft, you could lose potentially weeks worth of material gathering, component crafting, etc.

Oh, and unless you found a Dwarf (the only race who could really craft anything beyond basic items) with your recipe set up to craft in its shop (Dwarf players could set up their characters as crafting shops), you had to level a Dwarf yourself, get him to the level where he could learn to craft the item(s) you wanted, and then do it. The upside to that, though, is that crafters could make a lot of money in that game by just parking their character in the right spot, and letting people to come to them to craft stuff while they were afk, etc.

XIV's is a walk in the park by comparison.

Personally, I don't even think XIV's is that bad.. boring and could use a bit more variety in the situations you have to respond to and how you have to respond... but not horrible. I personally enjoy actually being involved in the process moreso than clicking one button and poof... you have your items.

Dwarves didn't level up by crafting, they levelled up by killing. The hardest/grindiest part of crafting in L2 was collecting the recipes which your book was also limited and the materials (both of which were gathered by Scavengers and/or killing thousands of mobs), not the crafting itself. Warsmiths were also highly valued to have in sieges and could very easily hold their own in PvP.

If you want to make cross game comparisons do it properly. Levelling crafting in this game is pure grind with nothing to make it more interesting.

[akisato]

So here's a question How do you make the act of making thing more interesting?

[Tiraelina]

The main problem is there's no benefit to doing anything but spamming standard in the current system to level up. Having a proper risk/reward system so you actually get a meaningful reward for higher quality/getting an HQ at the end of a synth would be a good start. Getting an HQ in the first place is so incredibly random and just forces you to spam craft to get a +anything. Having ~160q and getting a +2 and ~400-500q and get a NQ after touchups with identical XP for both is really silly.

Several good changes wouldn't even end up being that complicated. We've only been getting a more and more simplified system and removing what little benefits you had for getting better quality in terms of XP gains.

[Betelgeuzah]

Getting an HQ in the first place is so incredibly random and just forces you to spam craft to get a +anything. Having ~160q and getting a +2 and ~400-500q and get a NQ after touchups with identical XP for both is really silly.

The effect of quality has been clearly demonstrated through extensive testing before. It makes a huge difference now, don't know about 1.20+.