Super-mega-grind

[Rinsui]

I think that anything that feels like a grind has no place in a MMO in 2011.

[Betelgeuzah]

I think that anything that feels like a grind has no place in a MMO in 2011.

So take out leveling altogether, basically.

'Cause yeah, it feels like a grind in ANY MMO.

Oh wait, maybe that's just me? Anyway, I'm so glad you provided a clear definition as to what you mean by that sentence though. It's not like "feels like a grind" could be subjective or anything.

[Rinsui]

So take out leveling altogether, basically.

'Cause yeah, it feels like a grind in ANY MMO.

No. In a good MMO, the process of leveling (or, to be more comprehensive: progress)
should be fun. Either because you experience interesting quests on the way, or because
the game mechanics are genuinely thrilling and engaging, and leave you with enough
leeway to decide on the exact point on the risk/reward curve you want to use for your
progress (e.g: hours of mindless grinding puks for minimal reward, or minutes of
fighting really, really dangerous enemies for maximum reward).

In FFXIV, the speed of progress, however, is not adequately linked to player skill:

- In crafting you can increase the risk and reward by chosing higher ranked recipes,
but you have no skill-modificator for your chance of success. It's a simple game of
RNG (random number generator).

- In leveling combat, you either fight the same enemies over and over in a slow and
mindless solo (leve) grind, or the same enemies over and over in a mindless zerg.
Btw: About 90% of the enemies in game are never attacked by anyone, because they
are simply "not worth it". What a waste of developer resources.

...

Your point was? That you actually like the way leveling is implemented in FFXIV?

[Betelgeuzah]

No. In a good MMO, the process of leveling in itself is fun for a majority of players.

Naturally, the majority of people playing an MMO find it enjoyable and fun. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

That said, even in a bad MMO, the process of leveling is fun for the majority of its players.

Your point was? That you actually like the way leveling is implemented in FFXIV?

You do not define what you mean by something as subjective as "feeling like a grind". You then say that the majority of players should have fun playing the game, which is automatically accurate because only those kind of people make the playerbase of said game.

[Rinsui]

Naturally, the majority of people playing an MMO find it enjoyable and fun. Otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Hmm. I doubt the veracity of that statement in FFXIV. Crafting, for one thing, is not considered fun by anyo... well, there's always a few who like smelling dung, but I think it's save to say that there are *remarkably few* players who like the crafting mini-game in itself. But the prospect of pulling in millions upon millions as a high level crafter is enough of a pull for many to "endure" the grind. until they snap and realize they just wasted 100 hours on pressing the same button. While watching the same episode of Southpark for the 13th time. And gaining considerable weight on the way.

[Betelgeuzah]

But the prospect of pulling in millions upon millions as a high level crafter is enough of a pull for many to "endure" the grind.

Well, that won't be the case for too long, so those people no longer have to "endure" something they don't even enjoy. The problem fixes itself, and only people who enjoy the thought of playing with the economy can do it. The economy will stabilize, incentive to craft will become weaker, and people can do what they enjoy.

Then, suddenly, "feeling like a grind" becomes a buzzword at best. Those who end up crafting don't feel it as a grind, because they do it because they want to craft, not because they want to make crazy profitz instantly. Those who end up fighting don't feel it as a grind, again, for the same reason. And those who think both activities feel like a grind, well, they won't play this game.

I think it's save to say that there are *remarkably few* players who like the crafting mini-game in itself.

Not surprising, considering crafting is never about the actual game mechanics in any game.

[Preypacer]

Is it just me, or is crafting in FFXIV the
grindiest of all grinds ever invented in a MMO?

Is there a single game in human history where
crafting was grindier, or does FFXIV hold the
ultimate record?

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

And if you happened to fail the craft, you could lose potentially weeks worth of material gathering, component crafting, etc.

Oh, and unless you found a Dwarf (the only race who could really craft anything beyond basic items) with your recipe set up to craft in its shop (Dwarf players could set up their characters as crafting shops), you had to level a Dwarf yourself, get him to the level where he could learn to craft the item(s) you wanted, and then do it. The upside to that, though, is that crafters could make a lot of money in that game by just parking their character in the right spot, and letting people to come to them to craft stuff while they were afk, etc.

XIV's is a walk in the park by comparison.

Personally, I don't even think XIV's is that bad.. boring and could use a bit more variety in the situations you have to respond to and how you have to respond... but not horrible. I personally enjoy actually being involved in the process moreso than clicking one button and poof... you have your items.

[Tiraelina]

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

And if you happened to fail the craft, you could lose potentially weeks worth of material gathering, component crafting, etc.

Oh, and unless you found a Dwarf (the only race who could really craft anything beyond basic items) with your recipe set up to craft in its shop (Dwarf players could set up their characters as crafting shops), you had to level a Dwarf yourself, get him to the level where he could learn to craft the item(s) you wanted, and then do it. The upside to that, though, is that crafters could make a lot of money in that game by just parking their character in the right spot, and letting people to come to them to craft stuff while they were afk, etc.

XIV's is a walk in the park by comparison.

Personally, I don't even think XIV's is that bad.. boring and could use a bit more variety in the situations you have to respond to and how you have to respond... but not horrible. I personally enjoy actually being involved in the process moreso than clicking one button and poof... you have your items.

Dwarves didn't level up by crafting, they levelled up by killing. The hardest/grindiest part of crafting in L2 was collecting the recipes which your book was also limited and the materials (both of which were gathered by Scavengers and/or killing thousands of mobs), not the crafting itself. Warsmiths were also highly valued to have in sieges and could very easily hold their own in PvP.

If you want to make cross game comparisons do it properly. Levelling crafting in this game is pure grind with nothing to make it more interesting.

[Preypacer]

Dwarves didn't level up by crafting, they levelled up by killing. The hardest/grindiest part of crafting in L2 was collecting the recipes which your book was also limited and the materials (both of which were gathered by Scavengers and/or killing thousands of mobs), not the crafting itself. Warsmiths were also highly valued to have in sieges and could very easily hold their own in PvP.

If you want to make cross game comparisons do it properly. Levelling crafting in this game is pure grind with nothing to make it more interesting.

Right... you had to level them up. I didn't specify how, but that was the idea

Regardless, for a lot of people (that I knew anyway) who just wanted to be able to craft on their dwarf and do their hunting/killing on their other characters, it was a chore. In much the same way that people consider having to level certain classes they're not particularly interested in just to unlock skills considered "necessary" for their main class in this game to be a chore.

All of what you mention are, indeed, part of the process as well.

However, regarding the process of crafting itself, you did still have to sit there and click the mouse button countless numbers of times to craft things in many cases.

I remember being on Ventrilo while in one of my Clans and every time the clan leader would open his mic to talk about something, all you heard in the background was "click click click click click click click click click...".

Hell, just crafting shots could be time-consuming, esp. if you didn't have a SE handy to recharge the Dwarf's MP to do more crafting. You had to stand there and let it build back up... then craft more. Then let it build back up... Then craft more... Hoping someone else didn't come over and start using the same Dwarf lol... I remember scouring the crafting area in Giran to find a dwarf wearing good MP regen gear.

I don't think you'd actually argue that FFXIV's crafting is grindier or more tedious than that of L2, especially now with the simplification of recipes...?

To be clear I'm no saying "crafting is fine as it is". I definitely feel it could use more work, to make it more interesting and interactive. I just hope they don't go so far as taking the "okay, get all your materials ready, queue them up, press "Craft All", then go away and make a sandwich and when you come back, all your crafts are finished!"

[Rinsui]

Lineage 2's was definitely far, far, far,grindier.

You think having to press "Standard Synthesis" for a minute or so is bad?

Imagine having to press your mouse button potentially hundreds - yes hundreds - of times to create a single item, between making sub-sub components, crafting those into sub-components, crafting those into components and then crafting those into the actual item.

Hmm. Last time I played Lineage II (sometime in 2004?) each step didn't take more than a few seconds (incidentially I was a dwarf artisan). Then again, that was during open beta. ^^ I just remember that raw materials were waaay more expensive than finished items back then...

Also, as far as I remember there was no separate leveling of crafting skills per se; you got the respective skills automatically as you leveled up your character. So there was no real "crafting grind".