Quick Spell Speed Question

[Rongway]

Sorry for the long wait since "edit incoming"; I wanted to triple check my maths to make sure everything was good

Afair it's something like ~30 points per -0,1s recast

This number is off by an order of magnitude; it's closer to 25 points per 0.01s. But conceptually, your understanding of the marginal benefit is correct. Since each point is worth the same absolute reduction, the percentage of reduction goes up as points go up.

The faster you can switch from AF to UI and back the better. So, if you can get nearly 4 sets of AF off instead of 3 sets of AF that'd be much better than the normal right?
So in 90 seconds you'd be getting ~16-18 F4's instead of 12-14. Plus you also get extra room for bonus T3 procs. 390>280 [CR: did you mean >490? AFIII multiplier] even when not including the DOT.
When you have enough room for just 3 AF rotations extra T3 procs are sometimes bad. But if you have extra room, (like 10 seconds say) extra T3 procs are good because they're free damage allowing smoother transition to next full enochian phase.
Which is getting close at around 1100 SS.

Even if every cast was as short as the GCD and the GCD was, say, 2.30s, that's 26 casts per minute, and to fit in a 27th cast, it would require the GCD to drop to 2.22, which would require about 200 additional spell speed.


800 spell speed gives 2.79 Fire II/IV and 2.33 GCD
1000 spell speed gives 2.71 Fire II/IV and 2.26 GCD
and these numbers support a gain of about 1 cast per minute with a gain of 200 spell speed.

So in a perfect world where this one extra cast is a Fire IV, that's a gain of ~80 DPS, yes; but to cast that extra Fire IV realistically, you need an extra Enochian segment, which is at minimum an extra four casts (Blizzard IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Blizzard III), which is currently unattainable. (Note however that if this were attainable, it would be the Fire IV DPS gain plus the extra other three spells, so much more than 80 DPS. My point here is it's something to look forward to some day, but today is not that day.)

[FunkyBunch]

(Note however that if this were attainable, it would be the Fire IV DPS gain plus the extra other three spells, so much more than 80 DPS. My point here is it's something to look forward to some day, but today is not that day.)

You are correct. It is not yet the day for an extra Enochian segment. But it is the day for extra T3 procs.
But you are also missing that Spell Speed affects how soon Enochian is up, so more Enochians per fight. As did I, because I was basing it on 90s and then realized Enochian will always be 3 segments as it's cooldown is based on Spell Speed.
Faster Enochian's make more F4's too.

[JackFross]

So in a perfect world where this one extra cast is a Fire IV, that's a gain of ~80 DPS, yes; but to cast that extra Fire IV realistically, you need an extra Enochian segment, which is at minimum an extra four casts (Blizzard IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Blizzard III), which is currently unattainable. (Note however that if this were attainable, it would be the Fire IV DPS gain plus the extra other three spells, so much more than 80 DPS. My point here is it's something to look forward to some day, but today is not that day.)

I feel like you're missing something important in this argument. Three runs of enochian (at best) is 30+25+20 = 75 seconds. Enochian's recast is 60s. The 20s timer runs out during AF, so you will (at best) be going:
Eno wears off > B3 > T1 > F3 > Eno
Aka: 3 extra GCDs after it wears off - an additional +6 seconds. So we can assume the maximum recast for Enochian is ~80-81 seconds, and that's a slight undershot.

Spell speed would only necessitate a fourth cycle of AF under Enochian if you cut this 81 second timer (which is generally more like 70-73) down to something strictly less than 60. To shave off 10-13s from your casts in 60s, you would need nearly four to five times as much additional Spell Speed as you posited in your post to increase the gcds per 60s by 1.

Because of this massive leeway that BLM has in refreshing Enochian, Spell Speed has no soft cap with the current amounts we can get. For some actual numbers:
Assuming 0 random procs and a 2.26s GCD (since you gave me the F4 cast for that speed), your Enochian rotation would be:

F3>Eno>F1>F4>F4>F4>F3p>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1
F3>Eno

F4/B4 casts: 14*2.71s = 37.94s
GCD casts: 12*2.26s = 27.12s
Total: 39.06s + 27.96s = 65.06s

That's with not a single proc of any kind outside of the forced proc with Sharpcast for the 30s rotation and absolutely zero interruptions for movement or anything similar.
Thunder ticks for 18s. Assuming it's not flowing for the first, but is from then on, we're looking at ~11-12 ticks of Thunder which gives ~28%-31% chance of 0 procs.
You have two casts of F1. There's a 36% chance of getting 0 procs between the two of them.
Combined, there's a 10% chance that you will go through this entire rotation with literally 0 procs. Possible, but highly unlikely.

To decrease this baseline 65.06s rotation to a point where it is notably less than 60s (so 60.0 or less), you would need to increase Spell Speed to ~1460+
This drops the GCD to 2.08 (which is glorious) and causes the full rotation to be ~59.82s long with 0 procs. 10% chance that you'll wait less than 1s to pop Enochian.
Dropping below 59.0 requires 1570+ Spell Speed, and would give it ~58.64s duration with 0 procs. This would be scary, but 1 proc bumps it to 60.68, which is comfortable, and will happen 90% of the time.

So while this point exists, it's realistically unattainable in this current patch cycle.

If we attempt to maximize Spell Speed at the expense of all other stats, we still hit only a maximum of 1181 spell speed, which makes this rotation ~63s long with 0 procs.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/TQ67

So I dunno.

tl;dr: I think what needs to be looked at re: Spell Speed is the Enochian refresh timers, not some arguably nonsense discussion about a fourth Enochian rotation, which would never, in any realistic sense, be warranted. By the time you have the Spell Speed to do that fourth rotation, you'll also be able to hit F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4 in 15s, anyway, which means you'd have 4 shots of 15s AF3 rotations per 60s pretty easily.

[StouterTaru]

Isn't SS the only stat with no dimishing returns?

Crit Hit Rate increases damage as it increases rate. You start at ~5% chance at ~45% increase in damage. Around 46 Crit gives you a 1% increase to both crit rate and crit damage.

5%	45%	
6%	46%	~0.50% marginal increase from ~46 Crit
...
16%	56%	~0.66% marginal increase from ~46 Crit
...
26%	66%	~0.78% marginal increase from ~46 Crit

[Rongway]

Crit Hit Rate increases damage as it increases rate. You start at ~5% chance at ~45% increase in damage. Around 46 Crit gives you a 1% increase to both crit rate and crit damage.

[snip]maths[/snip]

Edit: No, sorry, you're right; I should have included the base damage.

normal chance + crit chance * (1 + crit damage multiplier) = expected value

0.95 + 0.05 * 1.45 = 1.0225
0.94 + 0.06 * 1.46 = 1.0276, an increase of 0.499%
0.93 + 0.07 * 1.47 = 1.0329, an increase of 0.516%
0.92 + 0.08 * 1.48 = 1.0384, an increase of 0.532%
.
.
.
0.75 + 0.25 * 1.65 = 1.1625
0.74 + 0.26 * 1.66 = 1.1716, an increase of 0.783%



And suddenly crit sounds even tastier.

[StouterTaru]

Assuming the 5%/45%/+1/+1 numbers are correct, this is still decreasing when we consider the % change instead of the absolute increase.

0.05 * 0.45 = 0.0225
0.06 * 0.46 = 0.0276, a change of 0.0051, 22.67% of 0.0225
0.07 * 0.47 = 0.0329, a change of 0.0053, 19.20% of 0.0276
0.08 * 0.48 = 0.0384, a change of 0.0055, 16.72% of 0.0329
.
.
.
0.25 * 0.65 = 0.1625
0.26 * 0.66 = 0.1716, a change of 0.0091, 5.60% of 0.1625

1.1716 / 1.1625 is an increase of 0.78% damage.

[Frost_Tear]

MP might be infinite, but max MP is not.
There isn't enough MP to support the loads of spell speed that people want to stack.

On paper, yeah, loads and loads of spell speed are great, but spell speed doesn't get you any more Fire IVs in an Enochian segment where your MP only supports four casts anyway.

Eh I never implied high spell speed would let you get more Fire IV casts or anything like that.

Just a light hearted joke post that only implies there is no draw back to being able to cast faster.

[Nekotee]

The more the better in spellspeed for a single target rotation.
Having too much is kinda confusing in aoe rotation.
I find myself going back to Fire to quickly for the mana regen to tick XD

But i adapt.

[Judge_Xero]

@ Jack

I believe the value for 5 x F4 is around 1650 SPD @ 2.4s for F4.

While that value lowers the 3AF cycle below 60s it is also extended slightly by the longer cast of F4 vs F1 and guaranteed T1 procs from Sharp.

[Madrone]

I got 5 Fire IV into a single rotation only with fey wind, ley lines and an enhanced arrow with my SS being at 1046. A new problem arises though. Mp ticks, you're too fast with B4 and Thunder in UI, you only get 1 tick lol. Still was fun being a machine gun. But the amount of SS we'd need for that probably will never be attained. My GCD was at 1.51 or so with those buffs.

This can be somewhat addressed with about +46-52 piety. 310 is enough that you can always cast either a Thunder or Blizzard IV after B3 without waiting for the 1st mp tick. If more wait is needed for the 2nd mp tick and enochian timer allows, you'd B1 for filler. B3 T1 B1 B4 F3. T1 and B4 should be long enough for both ticks though, unless getting SCH/AST speed boosts.