Dark Arts Adjustment

[Februs]

Over on the PvP forums, several adjustments were mentioned by Yoshi-P in regards to how utterly useless Drk was in the current Feast game mode.Most of you will probably not care about the adjustments being made, as they make no difference to PvE content (though most of them are good, for those of you who like to PvP). However, there is one change that caught my eye for possible PvE implications.

Dark Knight

We received a great deal of feedback from players who felt that dark knight was lacking in both offensive and defensive capabilities when compared to paladin and warrior, and to address these concerns we will be making the following changes.

[LIST][*]Dark Arts
Recast Time: 5s → 3s (PvP and PvE)

Dark Arts is having it's timer reduced. In PvP, this provides a faster and readily accessible boost. MP management is not as much of an issue as well, because the mp depletion rate for Darkside is much lower in PvP settings. However, this is not the case in PvE, so I'm wondering what the implications are.

My first thoughts are that nothing will change in regards to the Drk rotation. Our Mp draw will be the same, so we'll not be using any more or less DA strikes than we normally do. We could, mind you, but if we did we'd run the risk of running out of Mp all that much faster.This would not be the case, however, if Drk's mp replenishment was buffed somehow, but SE has not mentioned any additional changes being made so far.

Any thoughts on this? How do think this will effect Drk's playstyle? Do you think this means we'll be seeing additional changes to Drk's kit (especially in regards to Mp replenishment), or will we have to simply exercise more restraint when using DA?

[Deathgiver]

Can't really see it effecting anything outside of large aoe pulls. Single target there's a hard cap of 8 DA combo finishers, 2 DA-DP and 1 DA-CS offensively + 1 each DA-DD and DA-DM defensively. That's only a total 13 possible Dark Arts casts per minute, previous limit was 12, now it's 20. Even if they up the mp regen you're never going to use all 20/minute outside of maybe aoe pulls, but since effectively you can still only use it every second GCD without holding gcds for a half second or more, I don't really see it having much effect there either.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

This changes nothing honestly.

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

[Jpec07]

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

1. You don't even have a Dark Knight that we can tell, so you have literally zero stake in this discussion. You also have stated numerous times that you don't tank serious content in this game, so can't have any understanding of how the job functions in the real world.
2. If you are hiding a Dark Knight somewhere and aren't using Dark Arts, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to use your MP on Dark Arts extremely strategically, and build it back up when you're good to go without it for a bit.
3. Just because you don't know how to plan ahead and use Dark Arts strategically, and so think the job is broken doesn't mean that it actually is, and doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other people who do know how to do those things to very great effect. Never assume your experience is universal.

This changes nothing honestly.

On this we can agree, because a good Dark Knight will only use it as often as she or he needs to, and having a slightly shorter cooldown isn't going to change that.

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

Refer to the numeric list above. No DRKs on your account, no raiding experience, you aren't playing it right, and your experience isn't universal. I feel bad saying this, but you should seriously learn to play the class before you act like you know what you're talking about (or stop trolling us, if that's what it is, because we're all getting tired of it).

[Nektulos-Tuor]

1. You don't even have a Dark Knight that we can tell, so you have literally zero stake in this discussion. You also have stated numerous times that you don't tank serious content in this game, so can't have any understanding of how the job functions in the real world.
2. If you are hiding a Dark Knight somewhere and aren't using Dark Arts, you're playing it wrong. You're supposed to use your MP on Dark Arts extremely strategically, and build it back up when you're good to go without it for a bit.
3. Just because you don't know how to plan ahead and use Dark Arts strategically, and so think the job is broken doesn't mean that it actually is, and doesn't mean that there aren't millions of other people who do know how to do those things to very great effect. Never assume your experience is universal.

On this we can agree, because a good Dark Knight will only use it as often as she or he needs to, and having a slightly shorter cooldown isn't going to change that.


Refer to the numeric list above. No DRKs on your account, no raiding experience, you aren't playing it right, and your experience isn't universal. I feel bad saying this, but you should seriously learn to play the class before you act like you know what you're talking about (or stop trolling us, if that's what it is, because we're all getting tired of it).

Linked it before, don't feel like doing it again. I have a 60 Warrior and a 60 DRK. So please don't just assume.

Also, adjusting a change like this can be more negative then good, ruining rotations.

Also, I read Japanese forums. They all say the same thing; MP cost is too much. So please; don't troll and assume things either person. THANK You.

[Jpec07]

Linked it before, don't feel like doing it again. I have a 60 Warrior and a 60 DRK. So please don't just assume.

Where is this link (which thread?), and why is it not tied to your forum account? Yours is the credibility at stake.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Where is this link (which thread?), and why is it not tied to your forum account? Yours is the credibility at stake.

Could care less honestly.

Also, this has nothing to do with the thread. Stay on topic please. :P

[Jim_Berry]

Wow, this makes me glad I am still playing and switched to Warrior. Does he know how much Dark Arts costs? You can't even use 99% of your abilities with DA because its not worth the costs. Dark Arts and Darkside just EAT your mana away.

This changes nothing honestly.

The only way I can see this working is if Blood Weapon got a reduced CD and was useful in Grit and up all the time.

I used to feel that way, but I had to constantly play DRK in order to utilize Dark Arts with other abilities effectively. As an OT, I keep a lot of MP to almost always spam Dark Arts. As an MT, I rely heavily on Blood Price and Soul Siphon for MP regen, while Carve and Spit for those "oh crap I need a little MP" moments.

[Shurrikhan]

Any thoughts on this? How do think this will effect Drk's playstyle? Do you think this means we'll be seeing additional changes to Drk's kit (especially in regards to Mp replenishment), or will we have to simply exercise more restraint when using DA?

I imagine it'd make what few possible mess-ups we could make even more difficult to make or negligible when made. For those who weren't accidentally delaying their DA-CS by accidentally popping DA before a consumer (frequently DP), it just means we can use DA on every AD with a faint delay rather than every other, when being BP mana gluttons with relatively little outside healing received. In either case, I doubt I'd care or really notice.

To be honest, I don't see how its likely to help with Feast either. Even with its oGCDs, DRK isn't much of a killer. And even when attempting to burn someone down, the only offensive option worth using is DA-CS and DA-SE, which takes 3 GCDs to re-prep anyways. A mana cost reduction in PVP would have gone a lot further to help DRK's situation.

Honestly, even in PvE I think DRK could do with a slight reduction to certain mana costs, particularly Grit and Dark Arts. The latter is for obvious reasons; if we're spending a GCD on it, it shouldn't be killing a fifth of our pool, most of our gains from a Blood Weapon swap, just to return to tank stance. The second is to devalue Syphon Strike slightly and increase potential burst. My only hopes for recast times are that both Dark Arts and Darkside are changed to scale with one's GCD (a hope I similarly have for Meditation, Geirskogul, Gauss Barrel, Wanderer's Minuet, Cleric Stance, Transpose, Fester/Painflare/Bane, and others that could otherwise slightly bottleneck rotations or devalue attack rate).

[Februs]

To be honest, I don't see how its likely to help with Feast either. Even with its oGCDs, DRK isn't much of a killer. And even when attempting to burn someone down, the only offensive option worth using is DA-CS and DA-SE, which takes 3 GCDs to re-prep anyways. A mana cost reduction in PVP would have gone a lot further to help DRK's situation.

This wasn't the only change made to Dark Knight that Yoshi announced. The full list for Drk is as such:

Dark Knight

We received a great deal of feedback from players who felt that dark knight was lacking in both offensive and defensive capabilities when compared to paladin and warrior, and to address these concerns we will be making the following changes.

• Dark Arts
  Recast Time: 5s → 3s (PvP and PvE)
  
  
• Tar Pit
  Potency: 200 → 250 (Enhanced Tar Pit II: 240 → 300)
  Recast Time: 150s → 120s (Enhanced Tar Pit: 120s → 90s)
  HP Absorption: 20% → 150% (Enhanced Tar Pit III: 40% → 200%)
  
  
• Carnal Chill
  Recast Time: 120s → 90s (Enhanced Carnal Chill: 90s → 60s)
  Damage Penalty: 10% → 40% (Enhanced Carnal Chill III: 20% → 60%)
  Duration: 20s → 6s

Tar Pit should now function as a self-preservation technique, and Carnal Chill as a way to quickly lower the damage dealing capabilities of opponents. Also, while Carnal Chill’s duration has been shortened, recast times for these abilities have been reduced, which should enable players to employ them more effectively. These changes are intended to make dark knight function as a tank that can protect himself and his allies through debuffs and health absorption.

That's also just a drop in the bucket to the mass amounts of other changes being implemented. You can read the rest here, if you're interested.

Drk was made far more viable with several of these additions. Further, in PvP, burst potential is everything. With a shorter Dark Arts cast timer it is possible for Drk to extend their total burst for a longer duration with a higher potency at the expense of going completely broke on Mp. That sounds utterly ludicrous from PvE standpoint, of course, but in PvP it's a viable option and tactic when that extra bit of dps can make all the difference. It kind of puts Drk's in the same position as Pld, in that they'll have to make a conscious decision as to if the burst is worth the sacrifice. Another thing to remember is that Darkside already has a dramatically reduced mana drain effect in PvP settings (effect is reduced by 1/3 in PvP), so their Mp is already much more sustainable in the arena. I totally understood where these decisions came from for PvP ... It was the PvE part that seems a bit odd to me.

From what I can tell, it really does seem more like a QoL adjustment than anything else. I mean, IF SE implemented a stronger mana regen, or just flat out reduced the cost of Grit and Dark Arts, then I could kind of see this making a difference to our overall dps, but without those additional changes it just seems more like an ease of use kind of thing. That said, I really don't know if any additional changes are coming to Drk in that patch. The post was PvP specific. No further job adjustments were detailed outside of PvP announcements. I really don't think they're changing anything else (I figure they would have said something by now if they were), but that's not to say they never will (a man can hope).