I just don't get it.

[Nutz]

I for one i'm no where close to have\achiev what you have, and somethings i'll never be able to get that you have. I agree that you should have something special for playing the game that long other than a tattoo, isn't that what veteran awards are for?

I suppose veteran rewards are for that, though they're also meaningless glamour/ mounts/ etc. I think what melisande was getting at was the fact that in previous MMOs something like a relic weapon might have taken even longer to get, but would have lasting value. The way it's implemented in this game unless you quickly grind it out immediately it's either outdated or close to it by the time you get it, nevermind 6 months down the line.

In one of several efforts to make this game accessible to new players the devs neglected to make any items give a lasting advantage, and it's difficult to see how they could given the state of itemization. For a weapon to be useful one year from now it would have to be insanely powerful today -- objectively and significantly more powerful than anything else out there. Even so, 2 years form now it would be trash because all we really have to make weapons powerful are weapon damage and main stat and those things are constantly climbing.

To have items that can be useful even after new items have been introduced you need to slow down the power creep and add more interesting stats.

FFXI had a wonderful assortment of stats (IMO). One of the most sought after weapons in the game had very low damage, but due to other game mechanics and the unique properties of the item people still wanted it several years after release, even after level cap increases (referring to the kraken club in case you were wondering -- occasionally attacked 2-8 times). There's room for much more interesting stats that could make gear last longer if they'd also stop increasing main stat numbers so dramatically.

I'm not even advocating that they slow down on releasing gear really, just saying that it's not necessary for every other patch to include definite upgrades for every single slot on every single job. Of course, you really could get by with less gear added overall. I never quite understood the very rigid gear set structure that they use, but I suppose it's just another layer of accessibility (ie. as a tank everything 'of fending' is for me, and maybe some 'of slaying' stuff sometimes, and nothing else ever).

[Welsper59]

I'm not even advocating that they slow down on releasing gear really, just saying that it's not necessary for every other patch to include definite upgrades for every single slot on every single job. Of course, you really could get by with less gear added overall. I never quite understood the very rigid gear set structure that they use, but I suppose it's just another layer of accessibility (ie. as a tank everything 'of fending' is for me, and maybe some 'of slaying' stuff sometimes, and nothing else ever).

At this point in the game, at least until they give a HUGE heads up on revamping the system, it is absolutely mandatory that they keep going up on the ilvl. The players, unbeknownst to themselves, have an expectation in regards to content and reward. We want content to be harder and give us worthwhile rewards. No ones going to find it worth their time and effort to run through Savage just so that their a drop from it might offer a better ratio of a secondary stat for one job, while the rest might get something worse or just outright pointless.

Ignoring the fact that FFXI was not gear-locked in combat, the only reason XI got away with so much diversity with gear was because of how situational each piece was. If you were trying to be good at the game, you didn't stick to your WS set while you were trying to TP build. You didn't leave your Fast Cast gear on by mid-cast. No, you would macro a switch of gear to benefit from the wide array of stats that benefit you. In other words, that gear you macro generally sees action for a second or two when you do something related to it. Sometimes, you wouldn't even see it on your character by the time it swaps out lol. Not exactly material to be "cherished" outside of the numbers it represents.

We don't have anything like that because this game is not designed to handle that. Even if they did introduce side gear to remove that definitive upgrade next patch, absolutely no one with any sense of logic would find it to be truly worth their time if it were locked behind something like Savage. They would have to literally redo the entire stat system in order to introduce worthwhile side gear options. Even then, it'll come down to a singular BiS system without the ability to swap gear mid-combat. So along with that, they'd have to redo it so that we'd be playing FFXI, basically. WoW had a wide array of fun/useful/useless stats on their gear, but just like here, it came down to one BiS set. Alternative gearing only existed outside of endgame there, which is why FFXI essentially perfected horizontal gear progression.

If what you meant was that the upgrades were miniscule, then that absolutely would not work with the current system. If 6 months for the next tier of max ilvl isn't long enough to cherish your gear, then what realistically is? Why would anyone bother spending their time doing new content enough to last until the next cycle, when the difference with the new and old stuff is negligible?

Edit: This got cut off and its a rather important part to the tone of this lol. If what you were saying was encompassing your mention of adding interesting stats in order to keep gear relevant, then yeah, I totally agree obviously. It's just that based on the way you were arguing the subject, it sounds like you were looking at one being separable from the other, which is something I don't agree with.

[Nutz]

Edit: This got cut off and its a rather important part to the tone of this lol. If what you were saying was encompassing your mention of adding interesting stats in order to keep gear relevant, then yeah, I totally agree obviously. It's just that based on the way you were arguing the subject, it sounds like you were looking at one being separable from the other, which is something I don't agree with.

I was merely addressing each issue, though they're interconnected. You got the idea though. With more interesting stats they could slow down a bit on the release of gear and we could hold on to it a bit longer (even with potential upgrades being released).

Even though a lot of FFXI's stats were used in very specific situations, I think many would translate well here. You could have stats to reduce TP/MP costs/ increase TP/MP gains, various damage modifiers (ie. mobs take 5% more damage while under the effect of thunder, GL stacks deal 10 potency per stack to all enemies within area of effect), various ability modifiers (ie. 10% chance wrath stacks are not spent, Hallowed Ground makes you absorb damage rather than just negate it), double/ triple attack, occasionally deal double damage. Really anyone could think of tons of things from slightly advantageous to very effective that they could put on armor/ weapons that would be a lot more interesting than +15 STR.

[Welsper59]

I was merely addressing each issue, though they're interconnected. You got the idea though. With more interesting stats they could slow down a bit on the release of gear and we could hold on to it a bit longer (even with potential upgrades being released).

Even though a lot of FFXI's stats were used in very specific situations, I think many would translate well here. You could have stats to reduce TP/MP costs/ increase TP/MP gains, various damage modifiers (ie. mobs take 5% more damage while under the effect of thunder, GL stacks deal 10 potency per stack to all enemies within area of effect), various ability modifiers (ie. 10% chance wrath stacks are not spent, Hallowed Ground makes you absorb damage rather than just negate it), double/ triple attack, occasionally deal double damage. Really anyone could think of tons of things from slightly advantageous to very effective that they could put on armor/ weapons that would be a lot more interesting than +15 STR.

The only issue is that special secondary stats, while certainly a step in the right direction, is a short sighted fix with our current combat restrictions (i.e. the inability to swap gear mid-combat). That's why I mentioned the example of WoW, and how despite having some alternatives in non-endgame during its earlier years, it is still the same BiS situation that we have right now here.

Player combat is not so intricate to the point that situational gear needs would be a thing. That is, unless fights were created under the basis of needing situational gear.. which, in all honesty, would absolutely backfire. Like mandating your mentioned TP/MP affecting equips because the boss has abilities that drain them. While that would be a new idea for this game (old school to any XI players), the fact they're required is where the backfire begins (and certainly does not end there). I mean, people here got into the biggest fuss over the idea that endgame raid tiers have the audacity to require better gear as you progress through them. At any rate though, as I said, the inability to gearswap is the biggest roadblock to having a prosperous means of horizontal gear progression.

Horizontal gear acquisition in FFXI is both a gift and a curse. It made that equip that you spent months or years (literally) trying to get worth the effort, but it also made endgame into more of an actual job than anything else (old school MMORPGs at their finest). It'd be best to not take that too far, but it's inevitable that it will at some point. I guess what they COULD do, however, is introduce a means to further raise your current gear with augments... sort of like WoWs version, but this will actually raise the ilvl of your current gear. I don't think that'd go over well though, assuming 1 year is too long for one set of armor to be worn lol. That is part of the point isn't it? To have your gear that you worked towards getting be useful for longer.

Let's not forget our current inventory woes though lol. There's a lot they need to adjust before horizontal gearing can be a thing really.

[Shurrikhan]

The only issue is that special secondary stats, while certainly a step in the right direction, is a short sighted fix with our current combat restrictions (i.e. the inability to swap gear mid-combat). That's why I mentioned the example of WoW, and how despite having some alternatives in non-endgame during its earlier years, it is still the same BiS situation that we have right now here.

Player combat is not so intricate to the point that situational gear needs would be a thing. That is, unless fights were created under the basis of needing situational gear.. which, in all honesty, would absolutely backfire. Like mandating your mentioned TP/MP affecting equips because the boss has abilities that drain them. While that would be a new idea for this game (old school to any XI players), the fact they're required is where the backfire begins (and certainly does not end there). I mean, people here got into the biggest fuss over the idea that endgame raid tiers have the audacity to require better gear as you progress through them. At any rate though, as I said, the inability to gearswap is the biggest roadblock to having a prosperous means of horizontal gear progression.

Horizontal gear acquisition in FFXI is both a gift and a curse. It made that equip that you spent months or years (literally) trying to get worth the effort, but it also made endgame into more of an actual job than anything else (old school MMORPGs at their finest). It'd be best to not take that too far, but it's inevitable that it will at some point. I guess what they COULD do, however, is introduce a means to further raise your current gear with augments... sort of like WoWs version, but this will actually raise the ilvl of your current gear. I don't think that'd go over well though, assuming 1 year is too long for one set of armor to be worn lol. That is part of the point isn't it? To have your gear that you worked towards getting be useful for longer.

Let's not forget our current inventory woes though lol. There's a lot they need to adjust before horizontal gearing can be a thing really.

I'll admit straight-off that although I like the idea of horizontal gearing, the combat-gear-swaps doesn't seem remotely horizontal to me. It just seems like a snakier vertical path. If you don't have the gear set, even if of equal or lesser ilvl, that allows you to maximize a given ability, your overall stat-derived output is suboptimal. To say nothing of the idea of swapping outfits every 1-12 seconds--how does that work.. are we all just wearing stat-ed holograms?--aesthetically, it kill any actual sense of options or compromise even more than XIV's model. You either have the perfect manipulator, or you don't. And if you don't, you'd best go get it. Sure, there may be an average best answer for a particular fight even when able to choose your stats only before a fight starts, but at least that has a difference in dynamics. The alternative just slaps on bits and pieces until you have neither relative strength or weakness--just completion, within availability. If that's what horizontal gearing aims for, then I've no interest. I want meaningful stats, not niched ones.

If you want to see progressive, meaningful stats in action, (with little to no niche-ing) look no further than WoW's Hunters, Fury, Arms, Feral, Ret, Fire, etc. They were admittedly balancing nightmares, many of them starting weak early game and crushingly powerful later on as their proc-related secondary stats rose into serious percentiles, but your stats could actually influence your rotation or priorities. Some stats had particular plateaus, and others just messed with the gamble of the button flow, but either way they were noticeable. In XIV, the only real gameplay adjusters are Crit for Bard (gamble) and Speed for everyone else (plateau). That said, while XIV secondary stats certainly suffer from oversights (Skill Speed being split from Spell Speed, draining more TP for a lesser to near-equal dps contribution than Det/Crit, devaluing AAs and oGCDs, eventually preventing proper oGCD weaving), the lackluster stat-gameplay interaction has almost entirely to do with class design and internal mechanics rather than the stats themselves. I wonder if any changes might be made in that regard in the future, or if going from 3.4 to 4.0 will have changes merely on the level of a 3s-extended Phlebotomize and Demolish, again.

And indeed, before we can even think of amassing a horde of near-equally relevant gear, we would first need some solution to our inventory issues.

[Welsper59]

I'll admit straight-off that although I like the idea of horizontal gearing, the combat-gear-swaps doesn't seem remotely horizontal to me. It just seems like a snakier vertical path. If you don't have the gear set, even if of equal or lesser ilvl, that allows you to maximize a given ability, your overall stat-derived output is suboptimal. To say nothing of the idea of swapping outfits every 1-12 seconds--how does that work.. are we all just wearing stat-ed holograms?--aesthetically, it kill any actual sense of options or compromise even more than XIV's model. You either have the perfect manipulator, or you don't. And if you don't, you'd best go get it. Sure, there may be an average best answer for a particular fight even when able to choose your stats only before a fight starts, but at least that has a difference in dynamics. The alternative just slaps on bits and pieces until you have neither relative strength or weakness--just completion, within availability. If that's what horizontal gearing aims for, then I've no interest. I want meaningful stats, not niched ones.

If you want to see progressive, meaningful stats in action, (with little to no niche-ing) look no further than WoW's Hunters, Fury, Arms, Feral, Ret, Fire, etc. They were admittedly balancing nightmares, many of them starting weak early game and crushingly powerful later on as their proc-related secondary stats rose into serious percentiles, but your stats could actually influence your rotation or priorities. Some stats had particular plateaus, and others just messed with the gamble of the button flow, but either way they were noticeable. In XIV, the only real gameplay adjusters are Crit for Bard (gamble) and Speed for everyone else (plateau). That said, while XIV secondary stats certainly suffer from oversights (Skill Speed being split from Spell Speed, draining more TP for a lesser to near-equal dps contribution than Det/Crit, devaluing AAs and oGCDs, eventually preventing proper oGCD weaving), the lackluster stat-gameplay interaction has almost entirely to do with class design and internal mechanics rather than the stats themselves. I wonder if any changes might be made in that regard in the future, or if going from 3.4 to 4.0 will have changes merely on the level of a 3s-extended Phlebotomize and Demolish, again.

And indeed, before we can even think of amassing a horde of near-equally relevant gear, we would first need some solution to our inventory issues.

Unfortunately in your case, that actually is what the general idea of horizontal gearing falls to. The niche stats to assist gear you currently have, thus keeping old gear relevant while also making you want the new stuff. So while there is still a BiS system in place, your old gear does still remain relevant for a period of time without being replaced so quickly.

I can certainly appreciate your preferred idea on the matter, with stats varying how you play in general, but we (the players) don't allow such things to really be. Balance, for example, is a frontline concern. If it doesn't perform optimally at all times, it generally isn't looked at fondly, such as 3.0 AST. Special stats tend to also cause huge balance issues, and for a game like XIV, that's a rather large concern and probably why we don't have them. Then we have the min/max approach, which carries over to "best" and "optimal" degrees of play. We will find what works best, and given our tendencies in XIV (surprisingly more than some other games), that will be seen as the only option.

Your mentioning of class design is ABSOLUTELY something of warrant to criticize. It works for the most part with what we have now, but what we have is relatively bland. Been done a million times sort of feel. It's fine for a good while, but it does start to get stale the more we deal with it. I'd imagine rotations will continue to change though for some, so that will help along the way, but there needs to be a bit of an overhaul to aesthetics and effects (stat wise) somewhere down the road.

[Shurrikhan]

Unfortunately in your case, that actually is what the general idea of horizontal gearing falls to. The niche stats to assist gear you currently have, thus keeping old gear relevant while also making you want the new stuff. So while there is still a BiS system in place, your old gear does still remain relevant for a period of time without being replaced so quickly.

I can certainly appreciate your preferred idea on the matter, with stats varying how you play in general, but we (the players) don't allow such things to really be. Balance, for example, is a frontline concern. If it doesn't perform optimally at all times, it generally isn't looked at fondly, such as 3.0 AST. Special stats tend to also cause huge balance issues, and for a game like XIV, that's a rather large concern and probably why we don't have them. Then we have the min/max approach, which carries over to "best" and "optimal" degrees of play. We will find what works best, and given our tendencies in XIV (surprisingly more than some other games), that will be seen as the only option.

Your mentioning of class design is ABSOLUTELY something of warrant to criticize. It works for the most part with what we have now, but what we have is relatively bland. Been done a million times sort of feel. It's fine for a good while, but it does start to get stale the more we deal with it. I'd imagine rotations will continue to change though for some, so that will help along the way, but there needs to be a bit of an overhaul to aesthetics and effects (stat wise) somewhere down the road.

I do think if (Skill/Spell) Speed were fixed, that would already set a good starting precedent for multiple options. Monk for instance has 4 different rotational markers between the 2.5 (2.12) and 2.33 (1.98) GCD, where, if slight adjustment were made you'd have the bare minimum for a typical DK-to-DK, followed by 1 combat Meditation per DK/Twin/Demo, followed by DK- (or Twin-)drop rotations, followed finally by extended DK-drop rotations or extended DK-to-DK rotations. The sub-2s GCD spec is amazingly fun, and I can already pull near-equal dps out of it when short 6 ilvl just to reach that Speed, but the sheer drain on TP (perfect Invigorate still = starve in 2 1/2 minutes) make the option... well, not an option in the vast majority of fights. Speaking of classes (or in this case stats) that have a period of being sub-optimal that ramps steadily to becoming over-powered, the fact that Skill Speed has a near flat point-to-seconds'-GCD-reduction certainly doesn't help, either. .1 seconds lost at 2.5 means a fair bit less than .1 second lost from 2.1, for instance. The stat starts off crap, and gradually excels. It should be proportionate instead, reaching early plateaus more quickly and probably, though it pains me, reach the extreme plateaus later. And that's not even touching on its rotational devaluation (much like the AP/Main Stat vs. Armor Penetration back in Wrath - valuing direct physical over magical or DoT damage as Armor Penetration become king - even though we originally saw Serpent AP builds, Buff-maximizing SV / all-rounder MM Agility builds, stream-proc haste BM builds, sure-proc Crit SV/BM builds, and a few more all just on Hunter before ARP MM become the forum, and mathematical, favorite), which XIV otherwise seems to be trying to avoid.

For a real fix:
Reduce all bonus and base TP ticks by 20%. These now all tick per player GCD. (A Speed player now has a higher TP drain from above-average TP cost abilities, equal in all other regards, and regenerates TP faster when TP-buffed).
Skill Speed and Spell Speed have been merged into Speed, which affects Attack Speed and periodic damage (DoTs, ground DoTs, AAs, and oGCDs).
Animation times now scale with Attack Speed.

Alternatively though, you could add a more obvious form of stat complexity by purposely endorsing certain stats for certain stat ranges (early-game->late-game within a given expansion's level-cap content), or having them best pay off at certain general amounts, appreciating or depreciating over time, such that a player is supposed to seek out a particular equilibrium while gradually shifting their gameplay along the stat that best suits their stat range (Speed in 3.3-3.4, on a class that can make use of it, for instance). This was basically the case with 2.0's stats. Critical strike's value, in isolation, depreciated over time. Skill Speed's value, in isolation appreciated over time. Determination stayed the same. All stats increased in value as others increased, though some were effected more than others (e.g. Crit wouldn't help Speed nearly as much as Det on a Bard, because Speed couldn't affect Bloodletter). That's not my favored model--I prefer a true balance, rather than trying to cut the best equilibrium--but I wouldn't especially mind that either. But with 3.0's change to Crit, we now have two linear and one exponential stats. If they were going for consistency / balance, they should have at least done the same for Speed.

Now, as for what I think would be aesthetically attractive as far as Stats go... that requires a lot more creativity, which I'm not sure I have. The stuff that comes to mind are things like a controllable multi-strike (i.e. "Flurry"), allowing one to rapidly repeat a weaponskill during its following oGCD for lesser effect and again at TP cost (though perhaps reduced) or instantly re-cool a used oGCD, or faster combo-ing (tentatively "Drive") or progressively higher crit chance based on prior crits within a combo or whatnot, but these would have to work in cohesion with Speed (and perhaps Crit or Det) rather than merely devaluing it in creating a new way to approach a given rotation. Both would also have to be something that you don't use constantly; Flurry for instance should be used to rapidly distribute debuffs or punctuate high-potency moves, and would likely be limited by an internal resource while further balancing usage against increased TP consumption. And to really bring out the aesthetics of each would probably require an abundance of other changes, such as in breaking attack animations down into separable parts (the axe-spinning portion of Storm's Eye from its finisher, the quick double-slashing-parry of Disembowel from its turning stab, etc.), a sort of "Flex" mechanics that could rotationally make up for overextending a particular GCD (within reason), etc. etc. Long story short, it doesn't seem like it'd be easy. But if done right, it could mean that you have a Warrior laughing his head off while helicoptering around an enemy with Storm's Eye, ramping up crit chance for the final blow partition with each AoE hit that crits before it, a Monk seemingly DK-top-bouncing down and along a line of enemies to pass blunt resist to all of them before a massive AoE, or whatnot. It'd be a balancing nightmare, I'm sure, but potentially with quite a live display of its effects. And if it can have rotational or situational prevalence, then great. That said, it could just as well be something built into any given (or all) class(es), rather than being weighed against Crit, Speed, and Det.

If you're masochistic enough to go on reading, I'd like to throw a couple other ideas by you:
1. Dynamic/resource/rating stats. [INDENT]For instance, let's say you have an Evasion stat that rather than having a fixed percentile contribution, is a floating resource value, with a particular (stat-ed) maximum and a subsequent regeneration rate, that is instead consumed to dodge. In terms of how that would actually play out, the fewer chances you have to dodge, the more effective it is on each of those chances--mitigating its niche-ness. Additionally, it can be consumed at above-standard rates in order to deal with, say, damage that would otherwise kill you or reduce you to critical health. Additionally, Determination, Critical, and Speed can all then directly effect this resource, along with any internal mechanics that one might think up for a certain class. It can even lead to manipulation of one's particular Block, Dodge, and Parry chances for maximum average and crucial mitigation. (I'd actually imagine that being core to any revised GLD's/PLD's gameplay.)

2. Multi-faceted stats with manual allocation.
For instance, lets Determination, Critical, and Speed each have three or more possible uses, and you're given the option of what, exactly, you want to use them on. Determination could be used to extend one's (de)buffs, increase damage dealt, or increase resistance to Interruption, Knockback, and AoE damage (per above resource system; the less use, the more effect, mostly averaging out one fight with another). The first has plateau'ed use, a flip side to Speed's Attack Speed component, the second is perfectly linear, and the third is utility. You can freely transfer allocation between these, a bit like a moving about an RGB wheel.
...Heck, you could even go so far as to give various effects to each of the elements, and make elemental materia relevant again. Ice for instance might have a component by which to duplicate a portion of damage-as-healing into an absorption shield... Wind might have increased range or AoE radius (via rating, consumed only when enemies are within the potential extended range/radius) in addition to attack speed increases--a component of each element feeding into its surrounding ones, such as damage proccing speed in Fire, and speed then being usable for increased damage in Wind, while Fire's own increased ramp-up component would be buffed by Water, etc. That'd be an overkill of complexity, at that point, but I think it is actually something that could still be balanced, meaningful, and versatile both as cause and consequence of that.

Edit: honestly, I kind of hope SE just eventually creates a method to essentially beat the forums to the 'optimal' stats and builds. Create a program that can run the stat curves, find the best rotations, and determine output against a fight. Embed it into the character and Skill panes, make the stats transparent. On our side, we get to see what does exactly what, in output and surrounding effect, find out when our next gameplay change will be, etc.. On their side, it's that much easier to balance these things to create more viable options, both in macro and in the micro contexts of a particular fight, without having to lean too hard on uncreative caution. Now, there's a pipe-dream if there ever was one, but still, if it were possible...