I just don't get it.

[Deuce]

The formula/ treadmill/ disposable gear problem with this game is probably the thing I dislike the most. To me it's a very complicated problem though.

I played FFXI and I know how all of that worked. Put simply it wouldn't work well here and now. The environment is just too different for that. Further, one of the ways that FFXI allowed gear to stay relevant for so long was through mid battle gear swapping -- a practice that I don't think anyone actually wants to bring back. Without that, all of your niche pieces of gear become useless. Gear that reduces damage taken and little else? Useless. 2 mp/ tick refresh but terrible damage stats? Garbage. Tons of fast cast but no damage/ accuracy? Not going to use it.

The environment is certainly different, but I do not believe that those who are critical of XI complain that there were too many stats. In general, the discomfort for a lot of players with FFXI was the grind, which is easy to adjust. Even 2.0 and 3.0 has grinds, grinds that many players are unhappy with such as the new relics. Also, I am aware that some players wish that FFXIV would have a form of gearswapping, but I'm not so sure that is what a majority of former FFXI players want. I believe that veterans of FFXI want to feel like they can explore the game and its world. That it is worth exploring and that they're rewarded for doing so.

One of the biggest mainstream criticisms of 1.0 was the copy pasted terrain, which became a meme of sorts. Unfortunately, that public criticism has provided us with empty boxes that are wrapped in nothing but pretty paper. What do I mean by this? Well, the zones in 2.0 and largely 3.0 are varied quite a bit giving this feeling that there is a detailed world to explore. However, once a player begins to open up that box and they remove the paper they begin to realize there isn't much of anything there. In fact, most zones are full of forgettable sidequests; yet, once those are exhausted there remains little reason to spend time in them unless you gather or do hunts. FATEs, something that the developers were proclaiming as this great addition to 2.0 before launch, have become an afterthought in 3.0. Most likely a result of players farming FATEs instead of dungeons for exp.

Design decisions such as these cause me to arrive at the conclusion that the developers have merely blind folded themselves and attempt to throw darts at a board in the hopes that something might stick. They constantly will promise one thing only to make a complete 180 on their stance 6-12 months later. Something that players continue to be upset about since it was released (housing) is a perfect example of this. Prior to its release and even before 2.0 launch Yoshida continuously told players that the gil earned from leveling to 50 would be enough for a small house. It's amazing to think that this was even promised when by the time it came out small houses were on some servers 100-200x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching the initial level cap of 50. To this day, small houses on most servers are 10-20x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching level 50.

I'm going on a tangent here, but the point is, many of the design decisions for the game feel more like knee jerk reactions to criticisms or even players exploiting game mechanics such as Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace (hard) speed runs.

[RiceisNice]

One of the biggest mainstream criticisms of 1.0 was the copy pasted terrain, which became a meme of sorts. Unfortunately, that public criticism has provided us with empty boxes that are wrapped in nothing but pretty paper. What do I mean by this? Well, the zones in 2.0 and largely 3.0 are varied quite a bit giving this feeling that there is a detailed world to explore. However, once a player begins to open up that box and they remove the paper they begin to realize there isn't much of anything there. In fact, most zones are full of forgettable sidequests; yet, once those are exhausted there remains little reason to spend time in them unless you gather or do hunts. FATEs, something that the developers were proclaiming as this great addition to 2.0 before launch, have become an afterthought in 3.0. Most likely a result of players farming FATEs instead of dungeons for exp.

Even in this example, the environments had that benefit of the "pretty paper", and the zones do change over time ever so slightly depending on the events (Alys Llya and Alexander for one), as well as providing the setting for the FATEs and hunts as you mentioned. It'd be sigifcantly more monotonous if the FATEs took place in copy/pasted or bleak terrains every single time.

It's just not a good reason to cut corners on development, and that's the same for making interesting gear or dungeons (where players would always go for the most optimal/fastest).

[Lan_Mantear]

In fact, most zones are full of forgettable sidequests; yet, once those are exhausted there remains little reason to spend time in them unless you gather or do hunts.

I think part of that was because you were forced to spend ample amount of time in each zone. If you played XI, you probably have a lot of memorable experiences level grinding in Valkrum Dunes, The mob trains in Garliage Citadel, or that exciting trek with 17 other people to get to the BCNM or HNM location and getting lost along the way.

It was *very* grindy I admit that and it is definitely not for the average XIV player. But it did lead to some very fond memories. Specially when a simple thing like running to your XP Location could turn into a grand adventure.

[Deuce]

Even in this example, the environments had that benefit of the "pretty paper", and the zones do change over time ever so slightly depending on the events (Alys Llya and Alexander for one), as well as providing the setting for the FATEs and hunts as you mentioned. It'd be sigifcantly more monotonous if the FATEs took place in copy/pasted or bleak terrains every single time.

It's just not a good reason to cut corners on development, and that's the same for making interesting gear or dungeons (where players would always go for the most optimal/fastest).

I suppose that my initial argument wasn't very clear, so I'll try to explain a bit more. When I say, "pretty paper," I do refer to a lot of the minute detail put into these zones and my main point is that they only serve to improve the aesthetic and serve no actual purpose. They are akin to facades of buildings often used in film sets. The problem is that we are not watching FFXIV we are playing it, so the illusion is much more obvious to us as players. Small houses and structures that are of little value are no better than copy pasted terrain. From 1.0-2.0 zones shrank considerably in size. This was both good and bad. The good was that it added character to the zones that was largely missing. The bad is that it leaves little option for the developers to add to them in future patches. Furthermore, zones have little meat to them and beast tribe daily quests are not fun, nor are they interesting.

Also, my point of mentioning FATEs was meant more as an example to demonstrate that the distractions in open world zones arguably decreased and did not increase from 2.0 to 3.0 A regression, even if the loss wasn't something significant.

I think part of that was because you were forced to spend ample amount of time in each zone. If you played XI, you probably have a lot of memorable experiences level grinding in Valkrum Dunes, The mob trains in Garliage Citadel, or that exciting trek with 17 other people to get to the BCNM or HNM location and getting lost along the way.

It was *very* grindy I admit that and it is definitely not for the average XIV player. But it did lead to some very fond memories. Specially when a simple thing like running to your XP Location could turn into a grand adventure.

I agree that many FFXI players are fond of those memories as am I myself. I would add that it's not just the zones that those players miss, but the open world dungeons that were difficult to explore on your own such as Castle Zvahl, Castle Oztroja, Temple of Ugaleppih and so forth. Real danger in FFXIV is missing completely and because of that players have little incentive to interact with those outside of their niche groups. This is a design philosophy that I hoped was going to be fixed when Yoshida mentioned "danger" in his live letter discussions of 3.0. Sadly, the only danger we got was mobs with more HP that hit slightly harder. The annoyance of being heavied while running through a zone is largely gone because of flying, but that doesn't change the fact that even if a player were to explore it is a simple task of using your sprint button to avoid any unwanted encounters. Encounters which serve no purpose other than to quite literally slow you down.

[Welsper59]

The environment is certainly different, but I do not believe that those who are critical of XI complain that there were too many stats. In general, the discomfort for a lot of players with FFXI was the grind, which is easy to adjust. Even 2.0 and 3.0 has grinds, grinds that many players are unhappy with such as the new relics. Also, I am aware that some players wish that FFXIV would have a form of gearswapping, but I'm not so sure that is what a majority of former FFXI players want. I believe that veterans of FFXI want to feel like they can explore the game and its world. That it is worth exploring and that they're rewarded for doing so.

I agree that the stats weren't TOO much of a complaint in XI. I don't think that's what the potato was getting at though. Pretty sure he was just referring to horizontal gear progression not working here due to system related conflicts, such as an inability to gear swap mid-combat.

One of the biggest mainstream criticisms of 1.0 was the copy pasted terrain, which became a meme of sorts. Unfortunately, that public criticism has provided us with empty boxes that are wrapped in nothing but pretty paper. What do I mean by this? Well, the zones in 2.0 and largely 3.0 are varied quite a bit giving this feeling that there is a detailed world to explore. However, once a player begins to open up that box and they remove the paper they begin to realize there isn't much of anything there. In fact, most zones are full of forgettable sidequests; yet, once those are exhausted there remains little reason to spend time in them unless you gather or do hunts. FATEs, something that the developers were proclaiming as this great addition to 2.0 before launch, have become an afterthought in 3.0. Most likely a result of players farming FATEs instead of dungeons for exp.

Actually, I'd say the biggest criticism that 1.0 had was the horrendous buggy launch. They literally took something with blatantly obvious UI and communication lag, then decided it was ready to go. Maybe it was a little more complex than them just thinking the public will love anything they crap out, but that is pretty much what killed 1.0. Those of us who played it, particularly any beta players, experienced the same exact problems during the testing period, yet there it went... up for sale. QoL and things that remove them (like UI lag) affect enjoyment far more than people may realize. It's a form of displeasure that slowly builds, which is actually one of the more detrimental forms of it when involving products that aim to keep them there for long periods of time.

The FATEs mention, for the time, really was a great addition to the MMORPG format. Keep in mind that they're designing the game not just from the WoW players aspect, but from their home game of XI (and 1.0). A simple faceroll means to level up fairly quickly? Those types of features were a godsend for those of us that dealt with the crawl back in the day. Yet, while everyone did enjoy FATEs, we (the players) are not the brightest of the bunch. We generally do not have self control in how we choose to enjoy ourselves. If we decide that something seems efficient and fun, we will absolutely burn ourselves out to the point of hating every single thing about it. What's even more humorous about that, is that most of us that do that will never ever figure out why that came to be, and will point fingers at the feature just being bad. There's a difference between something being objectively bad, and something being bad because someone is bad at how it's used.

That having been said though, the devs have proven time and time again that they just suck at execution. Ideas are great... usually... but how they envision the player base to receive it or take part in it without destroying it, is where they fail consistently. Despite whatever Yoshi-P says about learning from their mistakes, they haven't had the reality of the situation sink in yet about their overall philosophy behind content.

Design decisions such as these cause me to arrive at the conclusion that the developers have merely blind folded themselves and attempt to throw darts at a board in the hopes that something might stick. They constantly will promise one thing only to make a complete 180 on their stance 6-12 months later. Something that players continue to be upset about since it was released (housing) is a perfect example of this. Prior to its release and even before 2.0 launch Yoshida continuously told players that the gil earned from leveling to 50 would be enough for a small house. It's amazing to think that this was even promised when by the time it came out small houses were on some servers 100-200x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching the initial level cap of 50. To this day, small houses on most servers are 10-20x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching level 50.

It's likely something to that degree. We need to always remember that devs try to cater to a nearly infinite number of tastes and preferences, while also keeping to what they want the game to be. Those tastes change over time, and that's an absolute BS situation, but it's reality checking in at every turn. Basically, while it might be entirely intentional for content to be released the way it is, the player acceptance and how we handle it is always a gamble, no matter what they did to prep for it. Keep in mind though, the devs creating something with proper prevention and care in mind is different from creating something then just letting it loose without doing the prep work (players cheating to win and lack of action, for example). The devs tend to never learn by doing the latter most of the time.

I'm going on a tangent here, but the point is, many of the design decisions for the game feel more like knee jerk reactions to criticisms or even players exploiting game mechanics such as Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace (hard) speed runs.

You are absolutely right about the knee jerk reactions as a result of the things I've mentioned, and then some that I haven't.

[Deuce]

Actually, I'd say the biggest criticism that 1.0 had was the horrendous buggy launch. They literally took something with blatantly obvious UI and communication lag, then decided it was ready to go. Maybe it was a little more complex than them just thinking the public will love anything they crap out, but that is pretty much what killed 1.0. Those of us who played it, particularly any beta players, experienced the same exact problems during the testing period, yet there it went... up for sale. QoL and things that remove them (like UI lag) affect enjoyment far more than people may realize. It's a form of displeasure that slowly builds, which is actually one of the more detrimental forms of it when involving products that aim to keep them there for long periods of time.

The UI problems and server lag was certainly 1.0's biggest flaw and ultimately its downfall. I believe to this day that if 1.0 was launched with a better UI, little lag, and more content such as quests we may never have received 2.0 and Tanaka would still be at the helm to this day. Regardless of widespread complaints about the initial combat system it is in my view not what killed the game. However, I would argue that FFXIV received a lot more mainstream criticism for the copypasta terrain while the actual playerbase were more concerned with the fact that they couldn't claim mobs let alone see them in order to do their guildleves at launch. Most people who bought FFXIV in 2010 probably didn't make it past level 15 because of the lag. Nevertheless, memes were made about the copy pasting and actual complaints were more focused on the shoddy server infrastructure and code. I believe a lot of us can remember how poorly something as simple as a launcher was implemented for 1.0. Patching that game was a whole entire nightmare by itself.

The FATEs mention, for the time, really was a great addition to the MMORPG format. ...There's a difference between something being objectively bad, and something being bad because someone is bad at how it's used.

I wasn't trying to argue that FATEs were a completely flawed design. There is a lot of merit behind the idea of wanting to populate your open world zones with players, but I believe concentrating them on FATEs was perhaps a bit short-sighted.

That having been said though, the devs have proven time and time again that they just suck at execution. Ideas are great... usually... but how they envision the player base to receive it or take part in it without destroying it, is where they fail consistently. Despite whatever Yoshi-P says about learning from their mistakes, they haven't had the reality of the situation sink in yet about their overall philosophy behind content.

I believe that this is the crux of the problem. The developers are in my view out of touch with the actual playerbase. Lord of Verminion is a perfect example of that. I remember when Yoshida mentioned that for the Golden Saucer he wanted to make sure that the minigames were actually good ones. LoV was probably the first minigame where he actually felt that it could be good. Unfortunately, its release was poorly timed and only served to grow discontent among subscribers.

"This is what they decide to spend developer resources on? A mini game?"

"We're only getting two hard mode dungeons a patch and in return we get this?"

Those aren't exact quotes, but I'm paraphrasing a lot of what the playerbase has thought and continues to think. Many people are in disbelief that LoV was given so much attention meanwhile diadem, something that players would be more likely to be interested in is implemented poorly.

It will be interesting to see what gets put on display in less than 6 or 7 months at fanfest, but if there aren't improvements or even any new conceptual ideas brought forth I can already see people groaning about the next expansion. I fear that if 4.0 is a repeat of 3.0, which insofar has been a repeat of 2.0 with more quality of life adjustments than this game will be in trouble. If you had the best console on the market when it comes to cost vs performance, but it lacks actual fun games to play, it'll fall flat on its face. Plus, if you continue to push out garbage titles a la Atari in the 80s, then the whole entire system will suffer as a result. These are simply analogies, but it's important to note that FFXIV can suffer the same fate, regardless of how good the game's systems are if the actual content is not fun or rewarding to play.

[ChameleonMS]

Design decisions such as these cause me to arrive at the conclusion that the developers have merely blind folded themselves and attempt to throw darts at a board in the hopes that something might stick. They constantly will promise one thing only to make a complete 180 on their stance 6-12 months later...I'm going on a tangent here, but the point is, many of the design decisions for the game feel more like knee jerk reactions to criticisms or even players exploiting game mechanics such as Amdapor Keep and Wanderer's Palace (hard) speed runs.

This is true in almost all development (any field, not just software). The DEVs come up with an idea and project what it could work like, they announces these features to build anticipation. After initial development and in house testing, they realize, umm.... that is not working too well. Let's change it. Then it gets released to the wild. They receive feedback, and make yet more changes.

Something that players continue to be upset about since it was released (housing) is a perfect example of this. Prior to its release and even before 2.0 launch Yoshida continuously told players that the gil earned from leveling to 50 would be enough for a small house. It's amazing to think that this was even promised when by the time it came out small houses were on some servers 100-200x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching the initial level cap of 50. To this day, small houses on most servers are 10-20x more expensive than the gil earned from reaching level 50.

This is simple to explain. After initial design, they realized the server load for the housing zones would force them to limit how many players could actually use it; this is an Infrastructure limitation, and those are not easily solved quickly.
You then have two choices
1. Scrap the design and start over. This has the implications of people feeling decived because the feature had to be delayed significantly.
Or,
2. Keep the design and put a limiter on it to "prevent" too many players from being able to use it. Design a limiter to be something that would just a somewhat bitter pill to swallow but you'll do it anyways.